Strathclyde manning agreement

[Mainsideman]

Been travelling around Glasgow visiting family recently, and the manning of trains has got me curious; I was under the impression all trains had to have a second person, or the train didn't run?

On a couple of occasions there was no evidence of a second person during my stay, so are the trains allowed to run with only a driver now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Been travelling around Glasgow visiting family recently, and the manning of trains has got me curious? I was under the impression all trains had to have a second person or the train didnt run? On a couple of occasions there was no evidence of a second person during my stay so are the trains allowed to run with only a driver now?

I seem to recall the rule is that a second person has to be rostered for every train but if extenuating circumstances (e.g. illness on the day) arise then the train can run without them rather than be cancelled.

 

[Falcon1200]

The second person might be on the train but not mobile! I was on a 6-car service today when they remained in the rear set, or at least, never made it to the coach I was in.

 

[Cails27]

I seem to recall the rule is that a second person has to be rostered for every train but if extenuating circumstances (e.g. illness on the day) arise then the train can run without them rather than be cancelled.

Driver discretion plays a part too eg. It’s later on in the day and you’re going to areas of known anti-social behaviour with no other staff member on board, within your rights to say no.

Has to be said as well, the ‘hot-spot’ trains for ASB are often double-manned with two Tickets Examiners and the driver on board.

 

[Mainsideman]

Driver discretion plays a part too eg. It’s later on in the day and you’re going to areas of known anti-social behaviour with no other staff member on board, within your rights to say no.

Has to be said as well, the ‘hot-spot’ trains for ASB are often double-manned with two Tickets Examiners and the driver on board.

Can the driver refuse to take a train without a ticket examiner then?

Are there repercussions for this?

Equally say its the drivers last train of the day, and theres no ticket examiner they can deem it safe to run?

 

[RiverDon]

Can the driver refuse to take a train without a ticket examiner then?

For Scotrail, yes. There is an agreement with ASLEF that drivers of DOO services can refuse to work a train as a passenger service if there isn't a ticket examiner.

Are there repercussions for this?

Not sure what sort of repercussions you have in mind (I guess disciplinary?) but no. The service is cancelled and that's the end of it as far as the driver is concerned.

Equally say its the drivers last train of the day, and theres no ticket examiner they can deem it safe to run?

Yes drivers also have the discretion to work without a ticket examiner, although as it is a company/union agreement it may not be a wise decision in the long term to undermine it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes drivers also have the discretion to work without a ticket examiner, although as it is a company/union agreement it may not be a wise decision in the long term to undermine it.

So do most drivers decline to do so then? Or is it split as to whether they will or not?

 

[scotraildriver]

The issue is ticket examiners get on and off at various points on the routes, the driver won't necessarily know if there's anyone on board until they get to their destination.

 

[Mainsideman]

The issue is ticket examiners get on and off at various points on the routes, the driver won't necessarily know if there's anyone on board until they get to their destination.

Are they diagrammed the same way as conductors

 

[yorkie]

Are they diagrammed the same way as conductors

Been travelling around Glasgow visiting family recently, and the manning of trains has got me curious; I was under the impression all trains had to have a second person, or the train didn't run?

On a couple of occasions there was no evidence of a second person during my stay, so are the trains allowed to run with only a driver now?

These DOO services can run without a ticket examiner, but are diagrammed to do so. They may not have one on the day due to e.g. illness, disruption etc.

But my experience is that I'm typically much more likely to see a visible staff presence on these trains, than on trains I typically get with a traditional Guard, such as TPE services, where the train has to have a Guard but they do not have to walk through the train.

Indeed on non-gangway multiple sets, the ticket examiners typically do regularly swap sets, while Northern & TPE Guards are confined to the rear set, meaning no visible staff presence in the front set.

I've made journeys from the Midlands up to suburban Glasgow stations involving several trains and the first ticket check was on the ScotRail service, e.g. Stafford to Hamilton with changes at Crewe & Preston. No check on Avanti, but was checked immediately - before the doors closed - on the train from Central low level!

 

[GordonT]

I know it was contentious when some North Clyde services were first extended to Bathgate and Edinburgh but do the same SMA procedures apply on these journeys on the section beyond Drumgelloch into Edinburgh? Are any of the crews based in Edinburgh or Millerhill or are they all based at Bathgate and North Clyde depots?

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

I think the agreement is the same on the Bathgate line. I think most crews are based out of Bathgate/North Clyde.
You quite often see staff who are sometimes at the station (being Bathgate as it is manned) also on ticket examining onboard waverley - bathgate trains.
Often also get two ticket examiners on the same train, but I seem to gather they just sit in the back cab for most of it!

 

[Cails27]

I know it was contentious when some North Clyde services were first extended to Bathgate and Edinburgh but do the same SMA procedures apply on these journeys on the section beyond Drumgelloch into Edinburgh? Are any of the crews based in Edinburgh or Millerhill or are they all based at Bathgate and North Clyde depots?

The agreement does cover Drumgelloch to Edinburgh services but those services only. No other ScotRail services out of Edinburgh are Driver Only.
Edinburgh and Millerhill crews don’t work those services - Bathgate is your furthest east North Clyde train crew depot.

 

[380101]

The Strathclyde Manning Agreement was updated in Dec 2024 and the new arrangements came into effect in Jan 2025.

All "Strathclyde" electric services MUST have a 2nd person onboard. This changes the previous original version which stated a 2nd must be rostered for the service.

If the Ticket Examiner is not present at the train the driver can decide not to take the service and therefore it would be cancelled.

Control should inform the driver prior that the TE will not be available to allow them to make a decision, however this rarely happens.

Most drivers cancel the service if there is no 2nd person onboard.

 

[GordonT]

Control should inform the driver prior that the TE will not be available to allow them to make a decision, however this rarely happens.
Most drivers cancel the service if there is no 2nd person onboard.

How regularly are services cancelled for this reason? Are TEs ever scheduled to changeover at an intermediate point on a journey with the prospect of the service being terminated if the relief TE doesn't show up?

 

[380101]

How regularly are services cancelled for this reason? Are TEs ever scheduled to changeover at an intermediate point on a journey with the prospect of the service being terminated if the relief TE doesn't show up?

TEs regularly change over at intermediate stations on the North Clyde line. On the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines TEs only change at terminus stations.

Not sure on numbers cancelled or how regularly, but it is not as regular as it once was. ScotRail recruited almost 140 additional TEs to ensure that they had appropriate coverage for a 2nd person on every train.

I'll cancel a train everytime if there is no TE.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The Strathclyde Manning Agreement was updated in Dec 2024 and the new arrangements came into effect in Jan 2025.

All "Strathclyde" electric services MUST have a 2nd person onboard. This changes the previous original version which stated a 2nd must be rostered for the service.

If the Ticket Examiner is not present at the train the driver can decide not to take the service and therefore it would be cancelled.

Control should inform the driver prior that the TE will not be available to allow them to make a decision, however this rarely happens.

Most drivers cancel the service if there is no 2nd person onboard.

Wow, that's quite a change. I remember when the original agreement came into force (1985?) as it seemed quite a sensible arrrangement, the hope being that it would extended to other BR areas as well. Did Scotrail get any concession back from ASLEF/RMT for agreeing to this change? In general, when I looked at how it was working (early to mid-90s) when I was involved with Scotrail professinoally, the ticket examiners were certainly present almost all the time and did a great job helping passengers, checking tickets and generally being a positive presence on the trains. Even late into the evening. Just as you would expect in Scotland!

 

[380101]

Wow, that's quite a change. I remember when the original agreement came into force (1985?) as it seemed quite a sensible arrrangement, the hope being that it would extended to other BR areas as well. Did Scotrail get any concession back from ASLEF/RMT for agreeing to this change? In general, when I looked at how it was working (early to mid-90s) when I was involved with Scotrail professinoally, the ticket examiners were certainly present almost all the time and did a great job helping passengers, checking tickets and generally being a positive presence on the trains. Even late into the evening. Just as you would expect in Scotland!

ScotRail got nothing from Aslef in this change apart from an increased salary bill. It was a long and determined campaign from Aslef that got the change.

RMT reluctantly got onboard with it. Not sure why they weren't keen on their members increasing and effectively gaining the same powers as a conductor if it came to industrial action ie; no trains would run if TEs were on strike etc.

 

[Mainsideman]

TEs regularly change over at intermediate stations on the North Clyde line. On the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines TEs only change at terminus stations.

Not sure on numbers cancelled or how regularly, but it is not as regular as it once was. ScotRail recruited almost 140 additional TEs to ensure that they had appropriate coverage for a 2nd person on every train.

I'll cancel a train everytime if there is no TE.

How would the driver know if a te was to be relieved at a station but one never showed up?

 

[380101]

How would the driver know if a te was to be relieved at a station but one never showed up?

It will show on the driver diagrams any crew changes and where.

I'd imagine the driver would if they had the opportunity to look for the TE on the platform as they arrive. Failing that a quick PA announcement asking TE to contact the driver. No response then inform control and make an informed decision on whether to cancel service at the next stop or continue to the end destination.

The agreement is a big step forward compared to the original but still has flaws that can, and will hopefully be resolved.

 

[Carlisle]

Did Scotrail get any concession back from ASLEF/RMT for agreeing to this change?

I understand Scotrail hoped the RMT would accept that new working agreement on the newly electrified Barrhead/East Kilbride services but they didn’t so Scotrail backed down.

 

[AilsaBus]

My train to work in the morning regularly has 2 TEs on it, one in each half of the train.

 

[Bill57p9]

My personal experience of the SMA area is that the TEs are both proactive and visible, which is most welcome.
I can concur with others that tickets tend to be checked for more keenly within the SMA area than elsewhere across the UK.
On the Ayrshire trains departing Glasgow Central it is usual for the TE to check tickets before arrival into Paisley - and that is within the context of ticket barriers in operation at Glasgow Central.

The lack of gangways between units on the Argyle and North Clyde lines does negate some of the TE visibility, which is a bit of a shame.

 

[waverley47]

The lack of gangways between units on the Argyle and North Clyde lines does negate some of the TE visibility, which is a bit of a shame.

Not for much longer.....

 

[Mainsideman]

Are all ticket examiners agency staff? I have never seen a vacancy on the actual scotrail website? Only through bluearrow? Do these ticket examiners not actually work for scotrail!

 

[olddriver]

You can be recruited via an agency and still be directly employed. It just means the agency manages the recruitment process.

 

[LowLevel]

Are all ticket examiners agency staff? I have never seen a vacancy on the actual scotrail website? Only through bluearrow? Do these ticket examiners not actually work for scotrail!

Blue Arrow I believe handle the initial recruitment process as an employment agency but ScotRail are the actual employer.

 

[Starmill]

In my experience there has always been a lot of effort made to ensure any gaps are covered, in the same way that the depot managers make the effort to cover the conductor work.

The difference was always that when they have exhausted every option the night before / on the day and still have some work uncovered, if it's conductor work the controller will proactively cancel part of the job on the morning or a few hours before as it's very unlikely to be able to run, and empty stock moves may be necessary. For unavailable ticket examiners they didn't do this and the train then did sometimes still run, because it would be down as ticket examiner x unavailable.

Since the recent changes, they may now do this. I don't know.

How would the driver know if a te was to be relieved at a station but one never showed up?

The driver will often speak to the ticket examiner on the turnaround, so they will be able to ask if the ticket examiner is working the train through to the same station that they are or not.

My train to work in the morning regularly has 2 TEs on it, one in each half of the train.

This also seems to be quite common, I don't know, but at a guess it's also a way of covering for a shortage if part of a shift is doubled up.

 

[GordonT]

When the SMA was first established (in the days when Chris Green was in charge at ScotRail?) I think there was more of an "open stations" environment with far fewer static barriers and a greater tolerance (expectation even?) of passengers purchasing their tickets from the onboard TEs. I wonder if this partly explains why a long-established culture of visibility and proactiveness by the TEs continues to compare favourably with some TOCs elsewhere?

 

[Starmill]

When the SMA was first established (in the days when Chris Green was in charge at ScotRail?) I think there was more of an "open stations" environment with far fewer static barriers and a greater tolerance (expectation even?) of passengers purchasing their tickets from the onboard TEs. I wonder if this partly explains why a long-established culture of visibility and proactiveness by the TEs continues to compare favourably with some TOCs elsewhere?

I guess back then there were only limited quickfare machines, or a similar equivalent for ScotRail at unstaffed stations. So for most people starting at an unstaffed location, buying onboard was not only the default but almost the exclusive option.

Nowadays most people are either using their phone, or the ticket machine if they don't have a suitable device, or are chancing it. There are a smattering of places left without a machine.