Storm Eowyn Disruption - 24/1/25

[pnepaul]

I see the Avanti 1S37 - 7.45 ex Euston has made it to Carlisle. I guess it's going back on the 13.50 to Euston.

 

[GordonT]

What we need (and could be done now) is something like a joint traincrew depot at Carlisle. Abandoning the NW to Scotland service at the slightest difficulty impacts the economic life of the regions.

Possibly a good idea in a parallel universe where there were no financial pressures on the railway industry. Here in the real world, however, any attempt to produce a business case in support of this would end up in the box marked "totally unaffordable sledgehammer to crack a walnut" box.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I see the Avanti 1S37 - 7.45 ex Euston has made it to Carlisle. I guess it's going back on the 13.50 to Euston.

I think you're right. Was an 11 car Pendolino (390130).

What's the latest on the WCML line re-opening North of Carlisle? Presume lots of overhead wire damage at location(s) further along having crossed the Border?

 

[43096]

It works perfectly well. The focus (rightly) is protecting the service to the south of Preston which links London with the country’s second and third largest cities.

How did the crewing work before 2002/3-ish when there were Carlisle terminators from London?

 

[godfreycomplex]

How did the crewing work before 2002/3-ish when there were Carlisle terminators from London?

Carlisle Intercity depot closed in 1995.

Subsequent to that it’s been either Scottish (with pass legs) or Preston crew on anything north of Preston (see also Lancaster terminators more recently)

Virgin mostly managed to make it work with the same crew setup so the problem probably doesn’t entirely lie with where the crews are located

 

[Millisle]

I think you're right. Was an 11 car Pendolino (390130).

What's the latest on the WCML line re-opening North of Carlisle? Presume lots of overhead wire damage at location(s) further along having crossed the Border?

A WCRC 47 has run from Carlisle to Carstairs and back. I saw it slowly heading north through Lockerbie a few hours ago.

 

[800001]

I think you're right. Was an 11 car Pendolino (390130).

What's the latest on the WCML line re-opening North of Carlisle? Presume lots of overhead wire damage at location(s) further along having crossed the Border?

According to NWR tweet, the line has now reopening, they tweeted at 16:06.

x.com

x.com

 

[dk1]

I presume Avanti are leaving it until tomorrow to resume any services now.

 

[Falcon1200]

that doesn’t mean the arrangements don’t make sense.

Protecting the service south of Preston does make sense, but there should still be a means of providing even a limited service (with maximum capacity, ie an 11-car Pendolino) to Carlisle when the route is open.

it’s not as if the service is curtailed at Preston every weekend.

But it is curtailed at Preston every time an incident further north occurs - Even if it is beyond Carlisle!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair when not operating to Scotland the hourly TPE largely does have enough capacity. However it does make a right mess of Windermere connections which merits some thought, and you also get some very long gaps at Penrith and Oxenholme as not all stop there and they don't seem to insert extra stops.

 

[800001]

Protecting the service south of Preston does make sense, but there should still be a means of providing even a limited service (with maximum capacity, ie an 11-car Pendolino) to Carlisle when the route is open.



But it is curtailed at Preston every time an incident further north occurs - Even if it is beyond Carlisle!

This is where GBR could be a good thing, train TPE drivers on 390s, then they could driver an Avanti 11 car between Preston and Carlisle vice a 397.
But will never happen, as it’s a sensible idea.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can remember many times when Virgin turned trains at Carlisle when there were problems on the route on to Glasgow/Edinburgh.
I can also see the logic of leaving Preston-Carlisle to TPE during disruption, as long as there is proper ticket acceptance and decent capacity.

 

[Bill57p9]

Avanti are now running hourly as far as Carlisle, turning the Euston - Glasgow fast services round there.

Diesel hauled freight seems to have been running normally between Carlisle and Mossend all day.

West of Scotland is still quiet, though Dumfries to Kilmarnock seems to also be running normally today (but not Dumfries to Carlisle).

 

[JordR]

You can use Avanti ticket destinations annual volume from Euston to get an estimate of the impact of running only south of Preston during disruption:

Destinations served

Milton Keynes Central 1.73m
Manchester Piccadilly 1.64m
Watford Junction 1.56m
Birmingham New Street 1.39m
Liverpool Lime Street 829k
Coventry 648k
Rugby 392k
Crewe 362k
Birmingham International 319k
Stockport 266k
Preston 254k
Stafford 227k
Wolverhampton 196k
Stoke-on-Trent 174k
Chester 165k
Nuneaton 163k
Warrington Bank Quay 132k
Wigan North Western 122k
Runcorn 92k
Macclesfield 82k

Total: 10.77m

Destinations not served

Glasgow Central 346k
Lancaster 88k
Carlisle 62k
Oxenholme 60k
Penrith 58k
Edinburgh 50k

Total: 668k

I know this estimate won't be exactly right (it doesn't take into account off WCML destinations or travel on the WCML not starting or ending at Euston, and I'm sure other things) but it indicates that when this decision is made it keeps 94% of passengers moving to where they want to go.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This omnipotent being Tetchytyke calls "Northern" is actual human beings who do want to do a good job where the situation allows.

I see Northern have a DO NOT TRAVEL today too because they don’t have any staff/the staff they do have are refusing to work overtime.

The same routes that were DO NOT TRAVEL due to “adverse weather” yesterday (even though no adverse weather was forecast yesterday) the same routes which are DO NOT TRAVEL due to staffing issues today.

The main train depots were all open yesterday. The main train crew depots were all open yesterday. It just so happens that these routes are operated by train crew depots which have had staffing issues for at least two years.

Obviously all of this is a complete coincidence and I’m a big meany for being cynical about Northern’s management. You know, the same Northern management that Northern train crew also don’t trust.

 

[Dr Hoo]

If we accept the basic logic of keeping WCML services operating as normally as possible south of Preston (by turning London trains back there) how many ‘spare’ Class 390s are generally left at or around Preston that could be crewed by (additionally trained) TPE staff.
Can I presume that low-capacity 5-car TPE trains would be ditched north of Preston so that the crews could switch to the more capacious Class 390s to Carlisle?
It’s starting to sound a bit complicated to me.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You can use Avanti ticket destinations annual volume from Euston to get an estimate of the impact of running only south of Preston during disruption:

Destinations served

Northampton 608k

Do Avanti even serve Northampton?

 

[jfollows]

Do Avanti even serve Northampton?

9M62 18:52 Edinburgh-Euston

 

[JordR]

Do Avanti even serve Northampton?

Fair point, with only one train per day so I've removed. It doesn't change the rounded 94%.

 

[Peter0124]

The first Avanti service cross-border left Glasgow at 17:30, destined for Euston (headcode 1M18)

 

[Falcon1200]

If we accept the basic logic of keeping WCML services operating as normally as possible south of Preston (by turning London trains back there) how many ‘spare’ Class 390s are generally left at or around Preston that could be crewed by (additionally trained) TPE staff.

There are, basically, two Avanti routes serving Preston; Euston/Glasgow, hourly; Euston via Birmingham/Edinburgh, Glasgow or Blackpool, also hourly. The first should be turned at Preston, the second partly binned with resources used to serve north of Carlisle. The Eustons should call at Crewe and/or Stafford to maintain a Birmingham connection.

 

[mountainpixel]

Do Avanti even serve Northampton?

Currently only a replacement Bus at midnight coming from Rugby that covers an Avanti service.

 

[Peter0124]

Glasgow to Lanark also seems to be back running, missing out Bellshill and Wishaw. Presumably because the WCML has been cleared.

 

[dk1]

The first Avanti service cross-border left Glasgow at 17:30, destined for Euston (headcode 1M18)

I can just imagine the sighs in the traincrew messroom

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

This is where GBR could be a good thing, train TPE drivers on 390s, then they could driver an Avanti 11 car between Preston and Carlisle vice a 397.
But will never happen, as it’s a sensible idea.

You’re looking at months if not years of negotiations to get anywhere near that idea.

 

[800001]

I can just imagine the sighs in the traincrew messroom

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==



You’re looking at months if not years of negotiations to get anywhere near that idea.

I know I know, that’s why I said it will never happen!

 

[43066]

I can just imagine the sighs in the traincrew messroom

Such a sinking feeling, you’ve just got comfy, having a few chats, gone for a walk etc. then your phone starts buzzing

can be done to make it more robust in future if possible. Perhaps a negotiation to remove that restriction on double tripping, or crew depot changes so that some can be Carlisle based.

That particular agreement comes up in discussion a fair bit. But it’s worth remembering that Avanti have some of the most stringent traincrew Ts and Cs out there including IIRC a 12 hour movement off spare. So the “no double trips” thing has to be seen in that context. Get rid of that and give them a three hour movement, as we have at my operator, and they may well be less flexible as a workforce.

 

[dk1]

Such a sinking feeling, you’ve just got comfy, having a few chats, gone for a walk etc. then your phone starts buzzing

Tell me about it. I mean I don’t wish for disruption don’t get me wrong as know how frustrating it is for passengers but I guarantee you that when there is and just as I feel I’m going to get on a flyer the darn route reopens and I’m either up to my day or beyond it as the delays persist Grrrrr!!!

 

[godfreycomplex]

Tell me about it. I mean I don’t wish for disruption don’t get me wrong as know how frustrating it is for passengers but I guarantee you that when there is and just as I feel I’m going to get on a flyer the darn route reopens and I’m either up to my day or beyond it as the delays persist Grrrrr!!!

Sage advice to any new entrant to the railway - never think “I’m onto a flyer here” too loudly.

 

[matt]

As the storm has now passed we'll bring this thread to a close.