Storm Eowyn Disruption - 24/1/25

[Krokodil]

People were having a similar argument about TfW not running on the North Wales Coast after Storm Darragh in December. Somebody, the following day, was repeatedly stating that the weather was fine so TfW must be able to run a service. "They've not posted photographic evidence of anything blocking the line" was another argument. I'm pretty sure someone was also claiming that TfW were using the weather to hide staffing issues, which is pure nonsense as TfW staffing issues are almost non-existent in comparison to other TOCs. It turned out that there were actually multiple issues and instructions along the line and it took the proving train 2 days to get from Holyhead to Chester. Northern may be far from perfect, but that doesn't mean they're lying.

I remember that. A clear definition of "when in a hole, stop digging"

 

[tumbledown]

It's odd that people are saying that their travel insurance doesn't cover weather alerts.
Certainly outdoor events can get cover against being ruined by bad weather.
Perhaps there are insurance professionals on the forum who can comment.
It seems there is a demand for cover which wpuld give limited payouts for small premiums.
It could be an optional surcharge at the time of ticket purchase - so self-funding.

 

[MikeWM]

Possibly because Glasgow/Edinburgh - Preston is run by Scotland based crew who are still stuck north of the divide, while Preston - the South has a different crew who don't sign Carlisle - Preston?

Well, yes, I know this *reason* that gets mentioned every time this happens, which now seems to occur very regularly.

Avanti have chosen to set themselves up this way, and it clearly doesn't work. It would be ridiculous if LNER abandoned north of York every time north of Newcastle is disrupted, or GWR turned everything at Exeter if there was an issue in Cornwall. This is equally unacceptable.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Caused by passenger(s) urinating in the saloon.

Ah, Barrow...

 

[Number5]

Scotrail looking like still being badly affected in places tomorrow morning.

 

[Megafuss]

Well, yes, I know this *reason* that gets mentioned every time this happens, which now seems to occur very regularly.

Avanti have chosen to set themselves up this way, and it clearly doesn't work. It would be ridiculous if LNER abandoned north of York every time north of Newcastle is disrupted, or GWR turned everything at Exeter if there was an issue in Cornwall. This is equally unacceptable.

What about when LNER regularly "throw in the towel" when something happens between Berwick and Edinburgh with virtually everything is turned at Newcastle?

 

[JordR]

What about when LNER regularly "throw in the towel" when something happens between Berwick and Edinburgh with virtually everything is turned at Newcastle?

I think that's a bit different. Running 9 or 10 car Azumas for the benefit of Morpeth, Alnmouth and/or Berwick is probably an inefficient use of limited capacity during disruption.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that's a bit different. Running 9 or 10 car Azumas for the benefit of Morpeth, Alnmouth and/or Berwick is probably an inefficient use of limited capacity during disruption.

Plus if stock and crew line up correctly they will go via the Tyne Valley instead on an ad hoc diversion if it seems the line is going to be closed for an extended period.

 

[Geeves]

Something I can't see mentioned in between Tetchytyke's untrust of Northern is that everything coming north of Preston comes from elsewhere, the units from either Barrow Carriage sidings or Newton Heath, Springs Branch etc. You also have train crew coming from Wigan and Blackpool N working Windermere trains and are up there doing shuttles.

There is no point taxi-ing folks round if there are no trains for them to work. As others have said it's not a conspiracy theory. I work with people everyday who work their arses off to get the services running and crewed. This omnipotent being Tetchytyke calls "Northern" is actual human beings who do want to do a good job where the situation allows.

 

[londonmidland]

This might be more appropriate for a new thread but looking at the weather models, it's showing a lot of rain and strong winds for parts of the South West, South Wales, Midlands and the South for tomorrow. This could lead to further travel disruption.

The weather chart below, from WXCharts, shows torrential rain in the South West, spreading north-eastwards throughout tomorrow morning.

This is followed by further heavy and possibly thundery torrential downpours, affecting a large part of the country late Sunday night.

 

[Krokodil]

Conwy Valley closed Sunday as a precaution

 

[EMU303]

Scotrail still struggling to get any trains going in the Greater Glasgow this morning. They’re trying to get the Glasgow Edinburgh service going and some movement on the Wemyss Bay service but that’s it so far.

 

[Bald Rick]

Scotrail still struggling to get any trains going in the Greater Glasgow this morning. They’re trying to get the Glasgow Edinburgh service going and some movement on the Wemyss Bay service but that’s it so far.

There’s trees and wires down on a number of lines; the teams are working through a very long list of incidents to clear up. Some of the damage is pretty bad.

 

[43066]

Well, yes, I know this *reason* that gets mentioned every time this happens, which now seems to occur very regularly.

Avanti have chosen to set themselves up this way, and it clearly doesn't work. It would be ridiculous if LNER abandoned north of York every time north of Newcastle is disrupted, or GWR turned everything at Exeter if there was an issue in Cornwall. This is equally unacceptable.

It works perfectly well. The focus (rightly) is protecting the service to the south of Preston which links London with the country’s second and third largest cities.

It also wasn’t Avanti’s choice - they inherited the set up and the WCML itself which hasn’t substantially changed for many decades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

Something I can't see mentioned in between Tetchytyke's untrust of Northern is that everything coming north of Preston comes from elsewhere, the units from either Barrow Carriage sidings or Newton Heath, Springs Branch etc. You also have train crew coming from Wigan and Blackpool N working Windermere trains and are up there doing shuttles.

There is no point taxi-ing folks round if there are no trains for them to work. As others have said it's not a conspiracy theory. I work with people everyday who work their arses off to get the services running and crewed. This omnipotent being Tetchytyke calls "Northern" is actual human beings who do want to do a good job where the situation allows.

Agreed.

 

[EMU303]

There’s trees and wires down on a number of lines; the teams are working through a very long list of incidents to clear up. Some of the damage is pretty bad.

Yes, to have so few trains running a full 36 hours after the storm underlines how damaging it has been to the rail infrastructure. Can anyone remember anything as bad as this? Perhaps the widespread electrification around Greater Glasgow is making it more challenging.

 

[Magdalia]

It's odd that people are saying that their travel insurance doesn't cover weather alerts.
Certainly outdoor events can get cover against being ruined by bad weather.
Perhaps there are insurance professionals on the forum who can comment.
It seems there is a demand for cover which wpuld give limited payouts for small premiums.
It could be an optional surcharge at the time of ticket purchase - so self-funding.

I am not an insurance professional but I do know a bit about financial services more generally.

Insurance companies are businesses attempting to make a profit. Their income is mostly premiums received, from which they have to pay out the claims and cover their expenses. The insurance companies will set the premiums according to their assessment of their financial exposure which is a product of the risk of the insured event happening and the financial impact if it does.

Outdoor events can get cover for needing to cancel an event because the insurance companies can make an assessment of the risk of cancellation, based on past weather data. The payout is likely to be fixed as part of the contract, so, if the insured event happens then the financial impact is known. The premium payments will be relatively big and the administration costs relatively small.

Now compare that with travel insurance for individuals. It would be lots of small claims with a high administration cost, and much more difficult to estimate the total financial exposure to any weather event. I suspect that any insurance companies that have looked at this have decided that, in order to cover their financial exposure, they would have to set the premiums so high that very few people would pay.

 

[AndrewE]

It works perfectly well. The focus (rightly) is protecting the service to the south of Preston which links London with the country’s second and third largest cities.

It absolutely does not. There are a lot of people outside those places who would also strongly disagree - and even some in them. Your comment is a revealing symptom of what is wrong with UK infrastructure governance.

It also wasn’t Avanti’s choice - they inherited the set up and the WCML itself which hasn’t substantially changed for many decades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

... which was getting on for a generation ago. It should have been re-jigged ages ago when the effects of the Balkanisation of the railway became evident. What we need (and could be done now) is something like a joint traincrew depot at Carlisle. Abandoning the NW to Scotland service at the slightest difficulty impacts the economic life of the regions.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, to have so few trains running a full 36 hours after the storm underlines how damaging it has been to the rail infrastructure. Can anyone remember anything as bad as this? Perhaps the widespread electrification around Greater Glasgow is making it more challenging.

Although to be fair, some of the incidents are due to paring back prevention. Whilst trees falling from adjoining land can't be helped, incidents due to branches from trees on railway land and flooding due to poorly cleared drains are 100% of railways choosing.

Choosing (as choice of word) might upset some, but they are as a direct result of decisions on what is cheaper, deferring maintenance or spending in unplanned way to sort the mess when things fail.

There is of course a balance, excessive over engineering is money wasting and slows improvements elsewhere as it saps funds, but silly skimping just comes back to haunt you.

As an example of this the recent loss of part of Westbury station roof (in a storm) wasn't on bits that dated from station rebuild 127 years ago, it was on newish roof sheets that lifted on mass because of sparse number of insufficiently large enough fixings had been used. Effectively expensive roof replacement wrecked due to skimping on box of screws. Its classic example of old saying of do not spoil the ship for ha'pence of tar. (When tar was used to waterproof between wooden keel planks).

 

[43066]

It absolutely does not. There are a lot of people outside those places who would also strongly disagree - and even some in them. Your comment is a revealing symptom of what is wrong with UK infrastructure governance.

... which was getting on for a generation ago. It should have been re-jigged ages ago when the effects of the Balkanisation of the railway became evident. What we need (and could be done now) is something like a joint traincrew depot at Carlisle. Abandoning the NW to Scotland service at the slightest difficulty impacts the economic life of the regions.

With respect it does “work”. You are entitled to disagree with it, but that doesn’t mean the arrangements don’t make sense. London to Manchester/Birmingham will always trump Glasgow to Lancaster/Carlisle etc. because the southern part of the route serves far more passengers and is far more economically important. Hence why the current arrangements almost certainly won’t be changing, even under GBR.

Your last sentence is also somewhat hyperbolic - it’s not as if the service is curtailed at Preston every weekend.

 

[AndrewE]

With respect it does “work”. You are entitled to disagree with it, but that doesn’t mean the arrangements don’t make sense. London to Manchester/Birmingham will always trump Glasgow to Lancaster/Carlisle etc. because the southern part of the route serves far more passengers and is far more economically important. Hence why the current arrangements almost certainly won’t be changing, even under GBR.

Your last sentence is also somewhat hyperbolic - it’s not as if the service is curtailed at Preston every weekend.

it works for you in London, you mean. 'Nuff said, we shall clearly never agree on this.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Just to be clear, the line between Preston and Carlisle is open, the weather is fine, but Avanti can't be bothered to run north of Preston and is relying on TPE to transport passengers that way? Yet again?

How is this considered remotely acceptable? It's one thing to not run services when it may be dangerous, as yesterday, but that hardly applies today.

Yes, that was pretty much it, to be fair. It sthe usual Avanti inability to go beyond Preston when things go wrong.

from scotrail’s farcebook page…

Which proves absolutely nothing about the state of any of the tracks Northern use...

It works perfectly well. The focus (rightly) is protecting the service to the south of Preston which links London with the country’s second and third largest cities.

I guess that depends on whose viewpoint you look at it from. For those of us who live north of Preston, it really doesn't work perfectly well. I only managed to get on a TPE service North yesterday because the Avanti service behind mine was late enough that it arrived after the TPE had left. If it had been on time like mine, then you'd have had yet another train load of passengers trying to get on it; as it is, there were going to be two Pendolinos full of people heading north for one 5 car TPE service , which will be carnage. It doesn't help that Avanti staff at Preston are giving duff info either.

This seems to be another one of those "we've always done it this way" situations. Someone (GBR?) need to take a look and see what can be done to make it more robust in future if possible. Perhaps a negotiation to remove that restriction on double tripping, or crew depot changes so that some can be Carlisle based. I know this will all be **** down by those working on the railway, but we, your passengers, really think things need to change.

 

[Haywain]

crew depot changes so that some can be Carlisle based.

Would that be any help without any trains being based/stabled at Carlisle, and with a good part of the storm problems being south of there?

 

[AverageJoe]

It’s a shame there isn’t more use of third rail.

It would mean less unsightly OHLE, less damage from wind and a quick solution to those pesky trespassers (joke)

Probably wouldn’t do much good in flooded areas though and the 750DC might struggle to cope with the workload.

 

[bramling]

Although to be fair, some of the incidents are due to paring back prevention. Whilst trees falling from adjoining land can't be helped, incidents due to branches from trees on railway land and flooding due to poorly cleared drains are 100% of railways choosing.

Choosing (as choice of word) might upset some, but they are as a direct result of decisions on what is cheaper, deferring maintenance or spending in unplanned way to sort the mess when things fail.

There is of course a balance, excessive over engineering is money wasting and slows improvements elsewhere as it saps funds, but silly skimping just comes back to haunt you.

As an example of this the recent loss of part of Westbury station roof (in a storm) wasn't on bits that dated from station rebuild 127 years ago, it was on newish roof sheets that lifted on mass because of sparse number of insufficiently large enough fixings had been used. Effectively expensive roof replacement wrecked due to skimping on box of screws. Its classic example of old saying of do not spoil the ship for ha'pence of tar. (When tar was used to waterproof between wooden keel planks).

On the latter point, over the last decade or two the general quality of workmanship in this country has massively declined, especially in the London area. Finding people who can actually do work competently is increasingly difficult. See it so often in storms, it’s often the bits which have had recent work done which give trouble. This is bound to be having an effect on the railway, both in terms of their own infrastructure, and the risk of being affected by the consequence of issues outside the boundary.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Would that be any help without any trains being based/stabled at Carlisle, and with a good part of the storm problems being south of there?

I guess the answer is "it depends on the circumstances". On Saturday there were no line issues between Carlisle and Preston because TPE were running up and down the same line all day, but with the issues being to the north of Carlisle, you couldn't use trains from Polmadie. Theoretically, you could pull a couple off the Preston/Euston, which may cause some holes in the timetable depending on what they interwork with, but surely that's more equitable than everything south runs and everything north doesn't... I guess it depends on what the railway is - a company making profit, or a government subsidised social good. I'm also fairly certain most issues this weekend were north of Carlisle, not south - like the fencing outside the station!

Would it be feasible for things known about further in advance like a storm to stable a few pendolinos at Carlisle? There seems to be plenty of sidings spare around the station that only ever seems to have a thunderbird or a measurement train in? Then if you had Carlisle based crew they could be used to do shuttles Carlisle/Glasgow or Carlisle/Preston?

 

[aaronspence]

Anyone know why Im seeing LNER and Cross Country trains run through Fife to Edi/Dundee and beyond to Aberdeen but all the Scotrail ones still are cancelled due to weather?

 

[Retorus]

Anyone know why Im seeing LNER and Cross Country trains run through Fife to Edi/Dundee and beyond to Aberdeen but all the Scotrail ones still are cancelled due to weather?

ScotRail are also running on that route.

 

[Haywain]

Anyone know why Im seeing LNER and Cross Country trains run through Fife to Edi/Dundee and beyond to Aberdeen but all the Scotrail ones still are cancelled due to weather?

Because they are the first trains scheduled through that haven't been cancelled. There's a Scotrail ECS on its way to Leven and the first Dundee to Edinburgh train is also on its way.

 

[Class83]

Anyone know why Im seeing LNER and Cross Country trains run through Fife to Edi/Dundee and beyond to Aberdeen but all the Scotrail ones still are cancelled due to weather?

Seems odd, RTT suggests a scotrail train is currently running non-stop to Leven, hopefully positioning to restart service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

Because they are the first trains scheduled through that haven't been cancelled. There's a Scotrail ECS on its way to Leven and the first Dundee to Edinburgh train is also on its way.

But there are Scotrail services scheduled on Sunday morning which haven't run (including the one running non stop) while the line is clearly not blocked if LNER/XC are operating.

 

[aaronspence]

ScotRail are also running on that route.

Because they are the first trains scheduled through that haven't been cancelled. There's a Scotrail ECS on its way to Leven and the first Dundee to Edinburgh train is also on its way.

Thanks! I knew there would be a reason, Though I would have thought the ones parked at Dundee would be doing the usual Dundee - Edi trips, but it is a Sunday.. Scotrail trains are pretty rare anyway.