Stations which could/should be closed

[DynamicSpirit]

(Talking about Coombe Junction Halt)

From memory, trains that call at the station have to stop twice, once at the junction and then once at the platform.

Out of interest, I looked at the area on Google Maps. I couldn't help noticing the variation of vegetation was rather suggestive of there having once been some East-South chord long since lifted and overgrown. Did such a chord ever exist, or is it just coincidence? It occurs to me that if it was possible to put a chord there, that would presumably speed up services considerably (no reversing), perhaps allowing a clockface timetable. (And for the sake of making my post relevant to this thread, that would presumably imply actually closing Coombe Junction Halt).

 

[A Challenge]

Looking at this attachment, originally online here, could we shut Pontefract Baghill,or any other least used stations, some of which have been mentioned!

 

[paul1609]

Three Oaks conveniently serves the village of that name and is used by a small number of locals.

Doleham serves only a few houses and scattered farms. Seldom used.

One of the evening trains that serves Three Oaks can have half a dozen passengers alighting there in my experience. Ive only seen 1 person get on and nobody alight at Doleham since the thumpers were replaced. It must be the least used station to have PIS and TVM (including TOD) facilities. Im looking forward to it getting Marshlink High Speed services.

 

[6Gman]

Ardwick.

(Because I always suggest Ardwick ).

Seriously, a closure proposal needs to meet one or more of the following criteria:

1. Closure would allow service enhancement (by freeing up paths/ eliminating conflicting movements);
2. Avoid unreasonable capital expenditure (e.g. a footbridge/ platform/ access needs £500,000 spending on it, for 4 passengers a day);
3. Allow significant operating savings or commercial benefit (e.g. the Looe branch suggestion that an hourly clockface service could be achieved).

So - for example - Ardwick would tick #1, and possibly #2 (looking at the state of its footbridge).

 

[317663]

If we're talking about low passenger use, would Epsom Downs come into this? Annual was 112K (first time over 100k, according to Wikipedia), and it's technically in London (Zone 6)

Strangely enough, Epsom Downs has the least entrance/exits on the Sutton-Epsom Downs branch.

Moreton (Towards Dorchester South) had 57K last year, and there's a single track from there to Dorchester - either remove Moreton or Add a second track to the west of the station. But if Moreton is removed, more traffic/passengers would be needed at Wool, and there won't be a station for nearly 10 miles.

 

[swt class 450]

Surprised to see the Sudbury Stations haven't been mentioned . The Piccadilly is nearby for both , and they take up valuable capacity on a two track line

Sudbury Hill Harrow
Sudbury and Harrow Road

Maybe Northolt park could go too , doesn't have too many users

Headstone Lane is also lightly used , and just 1-2 min from Harrow

Shutting down Sudbury & Harrow Road and Sudbury Hill Harrow would be an awful idea. What these stations need is a more frequent service. They both need a service at least once an hour in each direction from early morning (06:00) to late night (00:00) seven days a week. If they both got a better service (at the very least similar to what Northolt Park currently gets) then i am very sure they would get used much more. Considering how busy these areas are the current service is shocking. I am aware that Sudbury & Harrow Road is a three minute walk from Sudbury Town (Piccadilly) and Sudbury Hill Harrow is a three minute walk from Sudbury Hill (Piccadilly) but the Piccadilly Line is much less convenient. The Piccadilly Line takes about 40 to 50 minutes to get to Central London while the Chiltern Railways only takes about 10 to 14 minutes to get to Central London.

 

[swt_passenger]

Shutting down Sudbury & Harrow Road and Sudbury Hill Harrow would be an awful idea. What these stations need is a more frequent service. They both need a service at least once an hour in each direction from early morning (06:00) to late night (00:00) seven days a week. If they both got a better service (at the very least similar to what Northolt Park currently gets) then i am very sure they would get used much more.

But that's the problem. Chiltern haven't the passenger carrying capacity to add a regular fast service within the zones. The potential loadings are better handled by TfL's Picadilly trains.

 

[swt class 450]

Doleham and Three Oaks? Apparently they do get the occasional passenger but I never see them.

Three Oaks conveniently serves the village of that name and is used by a small number of locals.

Doleham serves only a few houses and scattered farms. Seldom used.

One of the evening trains that serves Three Oaks can have half a dozen passengers alighting there in my experience. Ive only seen 1 person get on and nobody alight at Doleham since the thumpers were replaced. It must be the least used station to have PIS and TVM (including TOD) facilities. Im looking forward to it getting Marshlink High Speed services.

Up until about five or six years ago back when Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea all had the same frequency as each other (about three trains a day in each direction) they were all very poorly used. Every time i visited them i never saw a single other passenger at any of the three stations.

However since Three Oaks and Winchelsea have received an increased service (one train every two hours in each direction) they are now much better used. I normally see about five or six board and alight every time i at Three Oaks station and i normally see about one or two passengers board and alight every time i am at Winchelsea station. However i have still never seen anyone board or alight at Doleham station but there are about eight houses near the station so it may get some use from the local residents.

The current most recent usage statistics are as follows:

Doleham 6496
Winchelsea 7598
Three Oaks 9604

So all three actually have quite similar usage statistics. I would be interested to see if all three stations (Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea) got an even better increased service of one train an hour in each direction if they would get even more usage. If you go back about eight or nine years Appledore only had a very limited service of about three trains a day in each direction (basically the same frequency that Doleham currently has) however it now has one train an hour in each direction and has seen a huge increase in usage. The current most recent statistics for Appledore are 39190 passengers a year. So if Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea had an increased service than there is a big chance they could see a lot more passengers.

All three station (Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea) all do indeed have one card only TVM (which is pretty useless if you only have cash) but i believe the only reason they were installed is so the entire network of all Southern stations could be made a Penalty Fare zone. All three station also have a departure screen built in to the help point but as far as i am aware they do not have any automated announcements.

 

[swt class 450]

But that's the problem. Chiltern haven't the passenger carrying capacity to add a regular fast service within the zones. The potential loadings are better handled by TfL's Picadilly trains.

I think what really needs to be done is convert this section to a four track layout which would allow more trains to call here without affecting the longer distance mainline services. Even just converting the section from just South of South Ruislip to just North of West Ruislip to four track could really help.

 

[paul1609]

Up until about five or six years ago back when Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea all had the same frequency as each other (about three trains a day in each direction) they were all very poorly used. Every time i visited them i never saw a single other passenger at any of the three stations.

However since Three Oaks and Winchelsea have received an increased service (one train every two hours in each direction) they are now much better used. I normally see about five or six board and alight every time i at Three Oaks station and i normally see about one or two passengers board and alight every time i am at Winchelsea station. However i have still never seen anyone board or alight at Doleham station but there are about eight houses near the station so it may get some use from the local residents.

The current most recent usage statistics are as follows:

Doleham 6496
Winchelsea 7598
Three Oaks 9604

So all three actually have quite similar usage statistics. I would be interested to see if all three stations (Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea) got an even better increased service of one train an hour in each direction if they would get even more usage. If you go back about eight or nine years Appledore only had a very limited service of about three trains a day in each direction (basically the same frequency that Doleham currently has) however it now has one train an hour in each direction and has seen a huge increase in usage. The current most recent statistics for Appledore are 39190 passengers a year. So if Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea had an increased service than there is a big chance they could see a lot more passengers.

All three station (Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea) all do indeed have one card only TVM (which is pretty useless if you only have cash) but i believe the only reason they were installed is so the entire network of all Southern stations could be made a Penalty Fare zone. All three station also have a departure screen built in to the help point but as far as i am aware they do not have any automated announcements.

Doleham defiantly doesn't have 6000 passengers a year I reckon the figures are an estimation, probably an allocation of zone based tickets like Daysave. I don't believe that giving it an hourly service would cause any increase in passenger numbers its in a very remote area. The reason that Appledore's numbers have increased so much is people using it as a railhead to commute to London from the Romney Marsh- its less than an hour from St Pancras via HS1 and has free parking and on the rare days when GTR gets enough 171s working it also has a 2tph service courtesy of the Rye Shuttle.

 

[30907]

If you go back about eight or nine years Appledore only had a very limited service of about three trains a day in each direction (basically the same frequency that Doleham currently has) however it now has one train an hour in each direction and has seen a huge increase in usage. The current most recent statistics for Appledore are 39190 passengers a year.

Are you sure about the service frequency? I don't recall a drastic cut followed by total reinstatement, but may have missed it.
Passenger numbers have been around 40k each year that they are instantly googleable (2011 on).

 

[30907]

(Talking about Coombe Junction Halt)



Out of interest, I looked at the area on Google Maps. I couldn't help noticing the variation of vegetation was rather suggestive of there having once been some East-South chord long since lifted and overgrown. Did such a chord ever exist, or is it just coincidence? It occurs to me that if it was possible to put a chord there, that would presumably speed up services considerably (no reversing), perhaps allowing a clockface timetable. (And for the sake of making my post relevant to this thread, that would presumably imply actually closing Coombe Junction Halt).

I think that's coincidence - aided by a stream which is much more obvious in map view!

 

[randyrippley]

It's a 30 minute walk to Grange-Over-Sands.

But if you've just walked across Morecambe Bay with Cedric, trying to beat the tide, the last thing you want is another 30 minutes of walking. Crossing that sand at speed is rather tiring!

 

[Parallel]

Looking at this attachment, originally online here, could we shut Pontefract Baghill,or any other least used stations, some of which have been mentioned!

Somerset's doing well if its least used station gets nearly 37k a year! Bruton only gets roughly 1tp2h (some three hour gaps) and also isn't central to the town. AND there are no ticket issuing facilities so I expect this to be even higher.

Wiltshire's only request stop (Dilton Marsh) gets around 20k as well. It's a shame rail growth (i.e. new services and stations etc) is relatively slow in these counties. I suspect Melksham would have been the lowest until a year or two ago.
--

In terms of Devon and Cornwall, I'm not too surprised, as there are a few very rural routes there. In terms of Chapelton, there are actually a few houses there, I previously thought it was just the odd farm. I think it's a case of services - If Umberleigh had few trains a day and Chapelton had an hourly service, no doubt people from Bideford etc would drive and use Chapelton instead. There is definitely a lot of "park and ride" at Umberleigh, the village isn't as big as the passenger numbers would lead you to believe.

As for Coombe Jcn Halt - The area is lovely, but it doesn't serve anything really, at all - and it's not especially convenient to get to.

Pilning really could be closed. GWR and Network rail have butchered the station and the car park is a building site - and there is a new solitary GWR branded 'Pilning' station nameplate attached to the fence. It's all a bit sad.

 

[sk688]

Shutting down Sudbury & Harrow Road and Sudbury Hill Harrow would be an awful idea. What these stations need is a more frequent service. They both need a service at least once an hour in each direction from early morning (06:00) to late night (00:00) seven days a week. If they both got a better service (at the very least similar to what Northolt Park currently gets) then i am very sure they would get used much more. Considering how busy these areas are the current service is shocking. I am aware that Sudbury & Harrow Road is a three minute walk from Sudbury Town (Piccadilly) and Sudbury Hill Harrow is a three minute walk from Sudbury Hill (Piccadilly) but the Piccadilly Line is much less convenient. The Piccadilly Line takes about 40 to 50 minutes to get to Central London while the Chiltern Railways only takes about 10 to 14 minutes to get to Central London.

CR may be quicker , and I agree with your other point in that if the CML is four tracked , the stations should stay open , and I would propose a Marlyebeone to Ruislip Metro service

But currently despite the CR being quicker , it is less convenient .Marlyebone is only served by the Bakerloo , 2 and 205 , whereas the Picc goes into Central London . Add to that , the " tube is best " mentality in most parts of London, and you can see why , even if the stations got a better service , they would not be used frequently

 

[Crossover]

I would say Norton Bridge, but it is now under consultation, finally.

As for Coombe Junction Halt, there isn't much in the nearby area save for a very steep hill back towards Liskeard (someone may have decided to walk it without checking the terrain first...). From what I recall, when the train reverses at the points, the crew change ends via the 153 saloon. The guard, however, has to go and operate the points, remain at the tokens/points machine until the train is clear of them, set the route back and then go running after the train :P

When the train calls in the station (as it did for me ) the guard and driver swapped ends in the station (I think the driver walked through the saloon then actually) and moved the short distance to the points, where the guard got back out again and did as per the above.

Repeat of course coming back.

The whole lot is single track (I think Liskeard "mainline" to the branch is possibly shunt moves - ECS - only as I don't believe it has a main signal aspect) and from Coombe Junction to Looe is strictly One Train Working. To support a 2 train service, there would be some double tracking needed or reversal in the platform at Coombe (if it is allowed, in a similar vain to Battersby), though I don't think the latter would achieve much being so close to one end of the line

 

[The Planner]

I think what really needs to be done is convert this section to a four track layout which would allow more trains to call here without affecting the longer distance mainline services. Even just converting the section from just South of South Ruislip to just North of West Ruislip to four track could really help.

Cost a fortune for something that would never pay for itself. Doesn't solve Marylebone or the section from Neasden Jn to Marylebone, it is why Chiltern want to go to OOC.

 

[backontrack]

At least two hourly or the complete service on the line if that is lower must call. So if there was any station on the Far North where some trains skip-stopped, those stations should close. (I don't mean Dunrobin Castle, that's more seasonal than infrequent).

Some of the Easter Ross ones (Beauly, Conon Bridge, Alness) are skip-stopped by one or two Wick trains to speed them up - rather stupidly. Alness is the largest town in Ross-shire and now has no convenient Highland Sleeper connection.

So, ignoring those ones, which should stay open in any case, you would be shutting Culrain, Invershin, Rogart, Kildonan, Kinbrace, Altnabreac and Scotscalder. I'd think about keeping Rogart and Kinbrace - passengers do get on at Rogart, while Kinbrace is actually a place and will hopefully become the site of a new loop soon - but the rest can go.*

*Except Altnabreac. I don't want Dixe Wills to have to force out a Tiny Stations rewrite and remove the biggest chapter. It's really weird that bit, BTW.

 

[backontrack]

Surprising that nobody has mentioned Braystones or Nethertown.

That said you will find that one man's station to be closed is another man's essential service.

Those two seem to get more passenger usage than I expected - possibly the adjacent caravan park for the former. I can't see why they aren't request stops on all trains.

Braystones also serves Beckermet. The station there recently broke the 1,000 barrier in terms of usage and now rests at the heady heights of 1,062. Nethertown is at 560.

Nethertown is the nearest station to Egremont I think, but if you wanted the train particularly you'd probably go to St Bees, Whitehaven or maybe Corkickle.

With the 6/X6 bus service disappearing (that's Whitehaven-St Bees/Bigrigg-Egremont-Beckermet-Calderbridge-Gosforth-Seascale-Holmrook-Ravenglass-Muncaster-Millom), the Cumbrian Coast Line is now needed more than ever. I think there's actually a case for making some stations (Dalston, Aspatria, Flimby, Kirkby-in-Furness) mandatory stops (the same happened to Seascale a while ago), and I certainly wouldn't close any.

The Far North Line first southbound service of the day skips stops but only really because it has to in order to make the timetable work.

That said the stops it skips are probably the logical ones for closure.
Scotscalder
Altnabreac
Kinbrace
Kildonan
Invershin
Culrain

I'd suggest keeping one of Invershin and Culrain (now Carbisdale Castle has been sold I'd keep Invershin).

Kinbrace has some potential for serving the upper Naver estates and hotels and is also a possible passing loop location so I'd save it as well.

Personally I'd also keep Altnabreac but I can see a valid argument for closing it, particularly if it were part of a wider programme to raise line speeds in the area.

Scotscalder and Georgemas Junction I'd like to see both close in combination with a new Georgemas Curve and a Halkirk station.

I certainly agree with this, it seems amazing that the only significantly sized settlement around there has no station.

Completely agree with both of you here.

I've already mention Rogart, but that station may not have much of a future anyway (a big problem for the Sleeper carriage operation there) if the Dornoch bridge goes ahead (although that project is now probably dead and buried).

 

[HowardGWR]

Somerset's doing well if its least used station gets nearly 37k a year! Bruton only gets roughly 1tp2h (some three hour gaps) and also isn't central to the town. AND there are no ticket issuing facilities so I expect this to be even higher.

Bruton is very reasonably located for the town (400m to centre), not that this would make any difference to usage, although there is no decent signage to the station. SW rural dwellers are almost totally car-orientated, so the fact that when I looked at the NRE page for Bruton

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/bru/details.html

for car parking charges, it said that APCOA were the operators, but the APCOA web site makes no mention of operating the car park, it begins to dawn that this is very much a forgotten item for GWR and NR.

As you point out, there is much more that is wrong with facilities at this location, no warm shelter, for instance, and I am surprised that the locals don't make more fuss.

Despite this, anecdotally, whenever my train has called, there was custom, so I am very dubious about the data. The boarding schools, on their own, I would expect would give a higher annual usage figure. Also, SWT are now running that way, to and from Waterloo, only in the afternoons though. If you have business in London, you can't get there before 0921 and that demands getting the 0707 back to Castle Cary first! I think many would drive to Westbury or Frome, depending on how early they wished to arrive in London. I would also expect a healthy day trip to Bath or Bristol, as the fares are cheap on this 15x class service. It depends on those secretive parking costs.

I wonder how the data are gathered.

 

[Firesprite]

Moreton (Towards Dorchester South) had 57K last year, and there's a single track from there to Dorchester - either remove Moreton or Add a second track to the west of the station. But if Moreton is removed, more traffic/passengers would be needed at Wool, and there won't be a station for nearly 10 miles.

Bit of a long walk from Wool for tourists travelling to Morton to visit and see the engraved windows by the late Sir Laurence Whistler in St Nicholas' and St Magnus' Church; the longest ford in the south of England; the grave of Lawrence of Arabia and Morton's Walled Garden. There also three Campsites and the Flampton Arms pub next to the twin platform station. Closing the station would result in a loss of trade and custom for local traders. All to save two minutes.

 

[RPM]

Shutting down Sudbury & Harrow Road and Sudbury Hill Harrow would be an awful idea. What these stations need is a more frequent service. They both need a service at least once an hour in each direction from early morning (06:00) to late night (00:00) seven days a week. If they both got a better service (at the very least similar to what Northolt Park currently gets) then i am very sure they would get used much more. Considering how busy these areas are the current service is shocking. I am aware that Sudbury & Harrow Road is a three minute walk from Sudbury Town (Piccadilly) and Sudbury Hill Harrow is a three minute walk from Sudbury Hill (Piccadilly) but the Piccadilly Line is much less convenient. The Piccadilly Line takes about 40 to 50 minutes to get to Central London while the Chiltern Railways only takes about 10 to 14 minutes to get to Central London.

Sudbury Hill Harrow was given a significantly enhanced service a decade or so ago, but it remains sparsely used. I do think it deserves to stay though, just because of its LU interchange function. Sudbury & Harrow Road, by contrast, is just an operational inconvenience, and I would shut it in a heartbeat.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sudbury Hill Harrow was given a significantly enhanced service a decade or so ago, but it remains sparsely used. I do think it deserves to stay though, just because of its LU interchange function. Sudbury & Harrow Road, by contrast, is just an operational inconvenience, and I would shut it in a heartbeat.

Sudbury and Harrow Road is situated on a reasonably busy shopping street, with a large population nearby. The problem is the infrastructure is simply not there to provide a good enough service at the same time as supporting the trains to beyond High Wycombe. I'd be reluctant to close it though - it's exactly the kind of station that, if it was closed, I could easily see being reopened at great expense in 20 years time - accompanied by lots of cries of 'why was it closed in the first place?'. Most obviously, if fast Chiltern services are rerouted into Old Oak Common, that opens up the possibility of a frequent all stations Marylebone-West Ruislip/High Wycombe metro route (especially if West Hampstead Interchange is built).

I don't buy the argument about the Piccadilly line being close by: Not everyone wants to travel to the same locations in London; in particular, the Overground has proved that there is considerable demand for orbital journeys (which would become easy from the Sudbury area with West Hampstead Interchange). And while Sudbury and Harrow Road may well be only 10 minutes walk from Sudbury Town, that doesn't mean that all the houses nearby are so close. There are going to be places that are - say 5 minutes walk from Sudbury and Harrow Road, but 15 minutes walk from Sudbury Town - enough for some people to make a difference to whether they drive or take the train.

 

[MontyP]

I'll suggest Wressle and Eastrington on the line between Selby and Hull. I've been travelling to Hull by train from Leeds and York for over 30 years and on the rare occasions that a train stops at either of these, I've never seen anyone get on or off. Possibly also Saltmarshe and Broomfleet.

 

[BurtonM]

Hensall, and maybe some others on the Goole-Knottingley section of line.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder how the data are gathered.

Ticket sales, basically.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shutting down Sudbury & Harrow Road and Sudbury Hill Harrow would be an awful idea. What these stations need is a more frequent service.

Even an hourly service wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference, when the Piccadilly Line runs every 6-10 minutes. I agree with DynamicSpirit that not everybody wants to go where the Piccadilly Line goes, but in London if you can't run a turn-up-and-go service of at least 4tph you really may as well not bother. And you can't run that service at any of the inner London stations on the Chiltern main line. Of all the stations up there, the only ones worth keeping are Northolt Park and West Ruislip.

I'd make Bardon Mill and Brampton request stops, but the cost of keeping them open is so small you may as well keep them open.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Kempston Hardwick is not the least used LM station anymore - i think that one is Millbrook

I used to use Millbrook station before I retired when visiting the eponymous road test laboratory there. Mind you it was a horrible walk of well over a mile along a fast country road with no causeway and drivers passing by who thought they were Lewis Hamilton. Somebody would normally give me a lift back to the station afterwards.

"Normal" visitors, of course, just took taxis from Milton Keynes or Bedford.

 

[3141]

My usual rule would be that if a station does not justify either a two-hourly service, or the entire service on the line if that is lower, it should probably go..

That's not necessarily the station's fault, the service pattern is provided by the TOC(s) that serve it.

Twenty five years ago Little Kimble had a service of just one or two trains each way, and my recollection is that on a Saturday there was a train to London in the morning but nothing called there on the way back. It was described in one report as a "threatened" station. Now it gets a regular service. Among the stations proposed for closure in this thread there are probably several that would get more passengers if they had more of a service. But the "Sons of Beeching" can't resist the opportunity to propose closures whenever they see a chance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not necessarily the station's fault, the service pattern is provided by the TOC(s) that serve it.

True, note that I say *justifies*, not *has*.