Stanier tenders - coal capacity

[Dave W]

I don’t have figures for coal consumption by the A4s on the 393 mile non-stop Elizabethan, but it must have been very much lower than the 9 tons stacked on the corridor tenders. Numerous photographs show A4s nearing the end on their runs on the ECML, north and south bound, with coal still visible high on the tenders. Even with the tender’s water capacity of 5000 gallons, two successful water pick-ups would be needed from water troughs on route to complete the journey non-stop. During the 1961 summer, the last of steam haulage, the down service was frequently delayed by water stops at Darlington and Berwick after Wiske Moor and Lucker troughs were pre-empted by earlier trains.

Apologies if this is slightly tangential, but to what extent would a successful water pick up replenish tanks? Obviously a lot of variables involved, but was there an accepted rough figure that could be relied on when planning to use the troughs?

 

[Trainlog]

In early 1964 “Modern Railways“ reported that the move had been broached by the SR and LMR. However closer examination of clearances at some locations (Northam tunnel and Battledown Flyover) presented issues, and consequently the transfers never took place. The Duchesses would have been more suited for Waterloo-Exeter Central workings, but by 1964 the WR had taken over the Salisbury-Exeter section, and planned to introduce ’Warships’ diesels on Exeter-Waterloo workings later that year.

I think this has to be up there with the Ivatt 2mt tank proposal for the IOW as one of my favourite loco 'What ifs' now .

Though fortunately, I have been on a railtour pulled by Duchess of Sutherland to Salisbury before so I guess I have already experienced that 'what if' by the looks of things.

 

[Rescars]

Apologies if this is slightly tangential, but to what extent would a successful water pick up replenish tanks? Obviously a lot of variables involved, but was there an accepted rough figure that could be relied on when planning to use the troughs?

It was quite possible to overfill the tank if the fireman was a bit slow in retracting the scoop, and for passengers to get an unplanned free shower. Thus the standing instruction to restaurant car staff to close all windows when approaching troughs if the restarant car was marshalled directly behind the loco.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don’t have figures for coal consumption by the A4s on the 393 mile non-stop Elizabethan, but it must have been very much lower than the 9 tons stacked on the corridor tenders. Numerous photographs show A4s nearing the end on their runs on the ECML, north and south bound, with coal still visible high on the tenders.

It is reported by Peter Townend (of Top Shed) and by Yeadon's Register that, with the streamlined faring initially fitted to the tenders paired with A4s reducing coal capacity to 8 tons, that complaints were made by the loco crews that very little was left in reserve by journey's end, particularly in adverse weather conditions, and twice in December 1937 A4s on the Up 'Coronation' ran out of coal at Hitchin.

Once the farings had been cut back and 9 tons coal capacity had been restored (coupled with some generous interpretations of how much coal the tenders could safely carry), it was generally reckoned that the loco that had worked the Up 'Elizabethan' into KX in later years would have sufficient coal to allow it to work back at least as far as Grantham. An A3 or A4 on typical pre or post-war Anglo-Scottish train loadings would typically expect to burn a little under 40lb of coal per mile in fair conditions, so around 40lb x 400miles = 16,000lbs or 7.25 tons of coal over the total distance as a ballpark figure.

 

[Tom B]

Further tangentially, how long would it take for troughs to replenish to full after being emptied by a passing locomotive?

 

[Harvester]

A good pick-up would be around 3000 gallons. As mentioned upthread, an A4 dropping it’s scoop with say half a tender of water (2500 gallons) would produce a vast spray of water if the scoop was slow in retracting, and the tank became full.

The water troughs usually replenished quite quickly (5 to 10 minutes).

 

[52290]

From memory (and seen at Wigan), the daytime Birminham / Glasgow service was often a Stanier Pacific, so probably changed locos at Crewe. It could be a heavy train, sometimes conveying a West Country portion attached at Crewe (the portion travelled via Hereford & Shrewsbury).

As a spotter at Leyland in the 1950's I remember only Semis (Duchesses) on the Birmingham to Glasgow day trains. In summer the Edinburgh portion ran as a separate train and , I think, was usually a Jubilee.

 

[Bevan Price]

As I recall (early 60s) the Plymouth portion attached to the Midday Scot leaving Crewe about 1600. But the Birmingham would have been a big train anyway.

Yes, my memory was faulty about that.
Looking at old timetables, I note that in some summers, there was a separate Birmingham - Edinburgh service; it is too long ago for me to remember what depot worked that Edinburgh service