Standard to 1st - Govia Thameslink

[Charlie_39]

Hello All, I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm posting this question in the wrong place - please let me know if so.

I'm a regular traveller from Portslade to Victoria, usually in standard class. Every now and then, when work is pressing, I'll take a 1st class seat if the price seems reasonable at the time; and sometimes, my partner will book my ticket for me.

In a rush, I asked her to book me a first class ticket. She didn't hear me, booked a standard one, I didn't pay attention and sat in 1st anyway - and was busted.

My question is, in your experience, is it worth appealing - based on the defence of a mistake/misunderstanding?

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello All, I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm posting this question in the wrong place - please let me know if so.

I'm a regular traveller from Portslade to Victoria, usually in standard class. Every now and then, when work is pressing, I'll take a 1st class seat if the price seems reasonable at the time; and sometimes, my partner will book my ticket for me.

In a rush, I asked her to book me a first class ticket. She didn't hear me, booked a standard one, I didn't pay attention and sat in 1st anyway - and was busted.

My question is, in your experience, is it worth appealing - based on the defence of a mistake/misunderstanding?

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

What do you mean by "busted"?

Were you Penalty Fared, reported for prosecution, or sold a new ticket? "I made a mistake" is not likely to be grounds for appeal, but if you were Penalty Fared, you may have some technical defences available which are usually based on how the notice has been completed.

Please upload any and all paperwork with your details redacted.

 

[jfollows]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Short answer is no, but the longer answer is maybe on a technicality if the correct processes weren't followed.

Can you please post up what paperwork you have, suitably redacted, so that others can assess what you have and how it was issued.

If you received a Penalty Fare, then this is designed for this sort of mistake, so it's unlikely an appeal will succeed. The railway and courts don't really take mistakes into account, it's like speeding in a car, if you did it then you're guilty.

 

[Charlie_39]

Firstly, thanks very much for your replies. The internet's a wonderful thing in the right hands

The heading on the ticket is:
Penalty Fare Notice

...and goes on to say...

'...unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey...'
'...Reason: Std to 1st...'

I'd upload the notice but don't know how to redact - and strongly suspect from the above 2 replies that I should just get on with paying the penalty - assuming this doesn't count as a criminal offence?

Thanks again.

 

[Cuthbert]

Firstly, thanks very much for your replies. The internet's a wonderful thing in the right hands

The heading on the ticket is:
Penalty Fare Notice

...and goes on to say...

'...unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey...'
'...Reason: Std to 1st...'

I'd upload the notice but don't know how to redact - and strongly suspect from the above 2 replies that I should just get on with paying the penalty - assuming this doesn't count as a criminal offence?

Thanks again.

You can open the screenshot/photo up in paint software every PC has.
Use the paint tools to draw over personal info and the ref number.
You can also edit photos on your smart phone as well.

Keep the rest they may have made a mistake still.
If you can post where you started, where you were travelling to and where you were "busted".

 

[Charlie_39]

Easier than I thought! Attached.

When I say 'busted', I just mean caught without the appropriate ticket.View attachment 169529View attachment 169530View attachment 169531View attachment 169532

Thanks again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2024 ==

Given previous questions, I should have also added that I started in Portslade and was asked for my ticket just before Gatwick. I then had to leave the train with the revenue guys (which I was doing anyway to switch trains) at Gatwick.

Thanks.

 

[jfollows]

That seems in line with the policy at https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/penalty-fares which explicitly mentions travelling in First class with a Standard ticket. You might want to “redact” the reference number also, but I think you’re best advised to pay sooner rather than later. The train company will keep a record but this goes nowhere near the court/legal system if you dispose of it now.

 

[Charlie_39]

Thanks again everyone.

Out of interest, why would I need to redact the reference number?

 

[jfollows]

Thanks again everyone.

Out of interest, why would I need to redact the reference number?

It's up to you, of course, but it's unnecessary information for us, and this forum is searchable and readable by anyone, so someone who wants to make mischief might be able to log on and use it to mess things up for you.

 

[Charlie_39]

I've just deleted the tickets as it seems I have what I need.

Thanks again everyone - very much appreciated your time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello All, I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm posting this question in the wrong place - please let me know if so.

I'm a regular traveller from Portslade to Victoria, usually in standard class. Every now and then, when work is pressing, I'll take a 1st class seat if the price seems reasonable at the time; and sometimes, my partner will book my ticket for me.

In a rush, I asked her to book me a first class ticket. She didn't hear me, booked a standard one, I didn't pay attention and sat in 1st anyway - and was busted.

My question is, in your experience, is it worth appealing - based on the defence of a mistake/misunderstanding?

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

Just wanted to check that you are aware that you can always sit in the REAR 1st class compartment on Thameslink Train with a Standard Class ticket - as it's 'declassified' (to use the railway jargon) - many people don't know this so it's often not full. That gets you the tables and the power points that are only in 1st.

However, this does not apply on Southern or Gatwick Express branded trains on the route or that you may take as parts of a journey from Portslade to Victoria.

Ref your Penalty Fare - i suspect it is not worth appealing really - but there is no down side to doing so if you gave it a try (it seems to provide a safeguard against a future prosecution for fare evasion for that occasion, although that would I think be unlikely to happen anyway)

 

[Charlie_39]

I wasn't aware of that, no - very good to know, so thanks

I'm not sure what you mean by the safeguard, though?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wasn't aware of that, no - very good to know, so thanks

I'm not sure what you mean by the safeguard, though?

Appealing a Penalty Fare - even if unsuccessfully - indemnifies you from prosecution for the offence, which, in theory, the company could choose to do (I'm not sure they ever would, but it still indemnifies you just in case).

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm not sure what you mean by the safeguard, though?

As @AlterEgo has helpfully explained better than I could.

 

[Tram203]

Just wanted to check that you are aware that you can always sit in the REAR 1st class compartment on Thameslink Train with a Standard Class ticket - as it's 'declassified' (to use the railway jargon) - many people don't know this so it's often not full. That gets you the tables and the power points that are only in 1st.

However, this does not apply on Southern or Gatwick Express branded trains on the route or that you may take as parts of a journey from Portslade to Victoria.

Apologies for digressing slightly - can anyone confirm whether or not the rear 1st class "easement" applies on Great Northern branded services operated by 700's?

I.e King's Cross to Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn / Peterborough (Peterborough only in the case of weekend or peak time extras).

 

[WesternLancer]

Apologies for digressing slightly - can anyone confirm whether or not the rear 1st class "easement" applies on Great Northern branded services operated by 700's?

I.e King's Cross to Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn / Peterborough (Peterborough only in the case of weekend or peak time extras).

I thought it was all Thameslink branded trains. There is a scrolling info board in the rear compartment that occasionally scrolls round to the info that says 'Standard Class tickets are valid in this area' or some such wording

this says (best to read it all though)

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class

"The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified."

As to what a Thameslink train is then it would be one listed as operated by Thameslink in the official railway timetable (you could rely on what National Rail journey planner says for that in my view - but there may be better sources)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to clarify, are there any "Thameslink" branded trains which operate direct from Portslade to Gatwick Airport?

 

[Charlie_39]

Just to clarify, are there any "Thameslink" branded trains which operate direct from Portslade to Gatwick Airport?

There aren't, but still helpful to know as I occasionally travel from Brighton instead - from where many Thameslink trains do operate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2024 ==

Appealing a Penalty Fare - even if unsuccessfully - indemnifies you from prosecution for the offence, which, in theory, the company could choose to do (I'm not sure they ever would, but it still indemnifies you just in case).

Interesting, thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2024 ==

As @AlterEgo has helpfully explained better than I could.

Thanks again.

 

[Tram203]

I thought it was all Thameslink branded trains. There is a scrolling info board in the rear compartment that occasionally scrolls round to the info that says 'Standard Class tickets are valid in this area' or some such wording

this says (best to read it all though)

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class

"The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified."

As to what a Thameslink train is then it would be one listed as operated by Thameslink in the official railway timetable (you could rely on what National Rail journey planner says for that in my view - but there may be better sources)

Probably for a new thread, but I'd think a class 700 with "Thameslink" on the outside of every carriage could reasonably be interpreted as a Thameslink branded train.

 

[WesternLancer]

Probably for a new thread, but I'd think a class 700 with "Thameslink" on the outside of every carriage could reasonably be interpreted as a Thameslink branded train.

Indeed...

 

[Royston Vasey]

Apologies for digressing slightly - can anyone confirm whether or not the rear 1st class "easement" applies on Great Northern branded services operated by 700's?

I.e King's Cross to Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn / Peterborough (Peterborough only in the case of weekend or peak time extras).

The message "This area may be used by Standard Class ticket holders" has always been present on 700 operated GN services, I remember asking the same question on here when they first started operating the outer suburbans; yes it's available for use.

 

[Hadders]

Apologies for digressing slightly - can anyone confirm whether or not the rear 1st class "easement" applies on Great Northern branded services operated by 700's?

I.e King's Cross to Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn / Peterborough (Peterborough only in the case of weekend or peak time extras).

Yes, the rear 1st class carriage is declassified.

In summary, all class 700 operated serviced have the rear 1st class carriage declassified. Sometimes it is declassified in the front carriage as well.