Standard Class coaches reserved for private parties

[Monty]

The sticking point for me is that Virgin allowed the quiet coach itself to be booked for private use rather than any other. Surely if one party is travelling together it shouldn't matter (to them anyway) that coach is a quiet zone or not? It may have been an oversight by someone at Virgin who handled the booking, but to me it's no different reserving the coach where the catering facilities are located and preventing joe public from using it.

I have no real issue in reserving entire coaches, but that should not extend to areas that offer unique facilities such as catering and quiet zones. First class is slightly different espcially in Virgin's case as they have more than enough capacity.

 

[Marklund]

My only question is what permits Virgin to make entire Standard Class carriages unavailable for public use?

Err, it *is* the public using the carriage.
You must mean other passengers. Well, if you wanted a seat in that carriage, on that train, book earlier. It's no difference than all seats being reserved by individuals.

You snooze, you lose.

 

[route:oxford]

The sticking point for me is that Virgin allowed the quiet coach itself to be booked for private use rather than any other. Surely if one party is travelling together it shouldn't matter (to them anyway) that coach is a quiet zone or not?

That all depends if they were an order of monks or nuns who had taken a vow of silence.

 

[All Line Rover]

Err, it *is* the public using the carriage.
You must mean other passengers. Well, if you wanted a seat in that carriage, on that train, book earlier. It's no difference than all seats being reserved by individuals.

You snooze, you lose.

There was a member of staff standing in the vestibule in Coach B preventing passengers from passing through to Coach A (including to use the toilet). The carriage was not available for public use.

My school reserved half a pendo coach last year. Total cost for all of us, Manchester to London: £747! 28 children 4 teachers

I'm surprised by how good value it is to charter a carriage. According to those figures, it's around £30 per person each way, which is less than the price of an off-peak ticket!

 

[Marklund]

There was a member of staff standing in the vestibule in Coach B preventing passengers from passing through to Coach A (including to use the toilet). The carriage was not available for public use.

Were the people in the coach the public? Yes.
The coach is for public use then.

 

[6Gman]

There was a member of staff standing in the vestibule in Coach B preventing passengers from passing through to Coach A (including to use the toilet). The carriage was not available for public use.

So if they had used another coach:

1. It would have needed two members of staff;
2. And people on the "wrong" side would have been blocked off from the buffet etc.

Have you considered there may have been security issues here?

 

[Bevan Price]

You think that's bad? I had the recent pleasure of travelling on a 2-car 158 on the Settle to Carlisle where Northern had reserved one of the two carriages for a coach holiday party. Needless to say the train was full and standing from Skipton all the way through to Carlisle, while the coach party on a group discount were as snug as a bug. And as us mere mortals can't reserve seats on Northern there wasn't any sort of compensation forthcoming- "you pay for the journey and not for a seat".
.

Most coaches carry no more than about 50 seats. Were there any empty seats in the coach with party reservations ?

In similar circumstances, I think that Northern ought to have ensured that a Class 153 was available to strengten the train, before accepting a large number of reservations on a service that was normally very busy.

 

[Class377]

The sticking point for me is that Virgin allowed the quiet coach itself to be booked for private use rather than any other. Surely if one party is travelling together it shouldn't matter (to them anyway) that coach is a quiet zone or not? It may have been an oversight by someone at Virgin who handled the booking, but to me it's no different reserving the coach where the catering facilities are located and preventing joe public from using it.

I have no real issue in reserving entire coaches, but that should not extend to areas that offer unique facilities such as catering and quiet zones. First class is slightly different espcially in Virgin's case as they have more than enough capacity.

I assume that stems from the fact that the quiet coach is in the end coach. If they were to reserve any other coach (in standard, of course) it would effectively split the train into two with no public access between either half. At least reserving the end coach allows access throughout the rest of the train.

 

[ComUtoR]

Agreed - that anyone even considers it is OK to do this (rather than use headphones on a splitter if necessary) beggars belief, and that staff don't stamp on it without a complaint is also highly disappointing.

Neil

I would suffer through kids sitting quietly watching a film than kids getting bored and the plethora of disruptive behavior that occurs from that boredom. The attitude that little children should be seen and not heard is very antiquated. There are many adult passengers who should know better and frankly some of the behaviour of the public leaves a lot to be desired.

Agree. I don't find a mobile conversation in and of itself any more annoying than a conversation between two people, unless in either case they are shouting.
Neil

I usually have my headphones turned up so that I can tune out those conversations. People do not realize that they will always talk over the level of what they hear.

At the end of the day. you have as much right to be there as the next person. Your right to a peaceful journey is no greater right than mine to be a loud and brash one.

Passengers with quiet coaches available on their local TOC should count themselves privileged. Us metro folks are squeezed in like sardines with some dirty sweaty fat bloke pushed up against us.

Kudos to Virgin for allowing passengers to pay, no doubt a premium, for a whole coach. If I had the money. I would reserve a whole coach to myself every day.

 

[Kite159]

Reminds me of the Hull Train service I did in August which went via Tottenham North Curve which had 3 of the 5 coaches reserved for private parties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suffer through kids sitting quietly watching a film than kids getting bored and the plethora of disruptive behavior that occurs from that boredom. The attitude that little children should be seen and not heard is very antiquated.

But the attitude that radios etc should not be played to the annoyance of any other passenger is a Byelaw issue - and one of basic consideration whether adult or child. And one easily solved by the use of headphones.

And are kids incapable of reading a book these days?

Neil

 

[Greenback]

I would suffer through kids sitting quietly watching a film than kids getting bored and the plethora of disruptive behavior that occurs from that boredom. The attitude that little children should be seen and not heard is very antiquated. There are many adult passengers who should know better and frankly some of the behaviour of the public leaves a lot to be desired.

You're absolutely right there. Although I find crying babies particularly uncomfortable, I do realise that it's quite natural, and I don't blame the child or the parent.

However, there are different scenarios in play. When there are children who are bored and they are ignored by their parent(s) that is a different issue to me. I've seen several incidents where children aged between 5 and 13 have literally been allowed to run up and down the train, bumping into people, shouting their heads off, while their mum or dad sits there quite happily with their headphones on, texting on their mobiles in blissful ignorance of the way their children's behaviour is affecting others.

Of course, not all parents behave in this manner, the majority are far more proactive when on a train journey and I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush. But I reserve the right to be critical of the way some adults behave with their children where the situation demands it. It may not be obvious here but I do have a lot of tolerance for children, I was one myself once! But not all parents are perfect all the time, not by a long way.

 

[ComUtoR]

But the attitude that radios etc should not be played to the annoyance of any other passenger is a Byelaw issue - and one of basic consideration whether adult or child. And one easily solved by the use of headphones.

Solved with headphones but another issue becomes apparent with headphone leak. Conversations can be solved with the use of sign language. Phone calls can be solved with the use of text and emails.... that then bleep every freaking second !!

Lets all sit in silence.

We live in such a selfish world and that what other people are doing annoys us more than what we are doing ourselves.

And are kids incapable of reading a book these days?

What does a book have to do with the price of fish ? Some kids read, others don't, Some are physically incapable. The same can be said of an adult.

The world today is one of instant gratification and the boundaries of age have been blurred. I see just as many kids on their phones as adults. I see many people watching various TV catchups or streaming a movie. That businessman in his suit guiltily playing candy crush...

Personally I try to be more tolerant than judgmental.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Solved with headphones but another issue becomes apparent with headphone leak. Conversations can be solved with the use of sign language. Phone calls can be solved with the use of text and emails.... that then bleep every freaking second !!

Put your phone on vibrate, then. But noise isn't the only reason I dislike hearing half a movie...my brain wants to find out what is going on, but I can't.

We live in such a selfish world and that what other people are doing annoys us more than what we are doing ourselves.

We live in such a selfish world that people don't consider others when deciding what actions to take themselves. I might even say "no" if asked "do you mind if I watch a film" - depends on my mood.

The world today is one of instant gratification and the boundaries of age have been blurred. I see just as many kids on their phones as adults. I see many people watching various TV catchups or streaming a movie. That businessman in his suit guiltily playing candy crush...

He can play what he likes *with the sound off or on headphones*.

Personally I try to be more tolerant than judgmental.

Personally, I try to be more considerate of others (by using headphones and keeping the volume down) than rude and presumptuous (that others wish to hear my music or film).

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most coaches carry no more than about 50 seats. Were there any empty seats in the coach with party reservations ?

No, the entire carriage was reserved. Northern should have strengthened it but naturally they didn't, given that we'd all paid regardless of whether we get a seat or not. Serco and Abellio haven't yet knowingly spent their own money on anything...

 

[ComUtoR]

Personally, I try to be more considerate of others (by using headphones and keeping the volume down) than rude and presumptuous (that others wish to hear my music or film).

Neil

The same here.

I like people watching and when I see folks enjoying themselves, winding down after work, and yes, kids playing. It makes me smile. I like to have a nose at what book people are reading and laugh quietly to myself when the latest book trend spreads through a train like a virus.

My TOC doesn't have the option of a quiet coach and as the week progresses it gets rowdier and rowdier. Half term and holidays are a nightmare with commuters clashing with the screaming horde. But, funnily enough, in general people get on well with each other and aren't rude. I think the tolerance is greater because we are forced together like cattle. Yes there are incidents but they are few and far between.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like people watching and when I see folks enjoying themselves, winding down after work, and yes, kids playing. It makes me smile.

No objections to that in itself. No particular objections to viewing films, listening to music, reading books etc - those are the things that because you can do them (well, not the middle one) makes trains better than cars. It just gets a bit annoying if you're trying to watch/listen to your own (with headphones at a reasonable volume) and you can hear someone else's over the top

I like to have a nose at what book people are reading and laugh quietly to myself when the latest book trend spreads through a train like a virus.

My TOC doesn't have the option of a quiet coach and as the week progresses it gets rowdier and rowdier. Half term and holidays are a nightmare with commuters clashing with the screaming horde. But, funnily enough, in general people get on well with each other and aren't rude. I think the tolerance is greater because we are forced together like cattle. Yes there are incidents but they are few and far between.

Interestingly, LM commuter services, even in half term, still seem to be "every coach is the quiet coach" in practice, particularly the morning ones. The presence of evening ticket restrictions probably reduce the crossover, but even before them this was still the case. It might genuinely help that the loud aircon white noise on the 350s drowns some of it out - now there's an argument for not spending too much money giving trains silent interiors.

Neil

 

[infobleep]

If they took over the quiet coach. Couldn't they put on another? I know people will have booked in other coaches but I've been put on the quiet coach without an choice when booking online in the past.

 

[Tibbs]

If they took over the quiet coach. Couldn't they put on another? I know people will have booked in other coaches but I've been put on the quiet coach without an choice when booking online in the past.

I wish you could specifically book *not* to be in a quiet coach. Any amount of noise in a non-quiet coach doens't bother me at all. Noise above the level that *I* think is appropriate in a quiet coach drives me beserk.

 

[infobleep]

I wish you could specifically book *not* to be in a quiet coach. Any amount of noise in a non-quiet coach doens't bother me at all. Noise above the level that *I* think is appropriate in a quiet coach drives me beserk.

I agree with you there. The Cross Country Train I was on today was quiet most of the time.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with you there. The Cross Country Train I was on today was quiet most of the time.

I have to say that most of the trains I travel on are pretty quiet. I find that Saturday's can be the noisiest day, with groups off toe njoy themselves somewhere, sporting events or parties, people going off on holidays or a few days away.

Mind you, Friday evening 'going home form work' trains can be a bit loud, certainly more than the equivalent train on a Monday!

 

[infobleep]

I have to say that most of the trains I travel on are pretty quiet. I find that Saturday's can be the noisiest day, with groups off toe njoy themselves somewhere, sporting events or parties, people going off on holidays or a few days away.

Mind you, Friday evening 'going home form work' trains can be a bit loud, certainly more than the equivalent train on a Monday!

On a Monday morning everyone is probably trying to stay awake or groaning about having another weeks work to undertake!

 

[BestWestern]

Were the people in the coach the public? Yes.
The coach is for public use then.

Not really. There is a clear distinction between 'public' and 'private' in this situation. The train is available to the public, however that particular coach has been reserved for the exclusive use of a specific group of people, with anybody else barred from entry. That group therefore becomes a 'private' party, the coach is deemed private, and the 'public' are indeed denied access.

If the train has adequate space for all other passengers elsewhere then it shouldn't be an issue. However if the train was busy and others were struggling to find standing space (thinking a la Voyager vestibule) then I would certainly have a problem with it. In either case I would be p*ssed off had I wanted to travel in the quiet coach, and would be having a minor rant at VT.

 

[Marklund]

Not really. There is a clear distinction between 'public' and 'private' in this situation. The train is available to the public, however that particular coach has been reserved for the exclusive use of a specific group of people, with anybody else barred from entry. That group therefore becomes a 'private' party, the coach is deemed private, and the 'public' are indeed denied access.

If the train has adequate space for all other passengers elsewhere then it shouldn't be an issue. However if the train was busy and others were struggling to find standing space (thinking a la Voyager vestibule) then I would certainly have a problem with it. In either case I would be p*ssed off had I wanted to travel in the quiet coach, and would be having a minor rant at VT.

Nope, they're still ticket holders, and members of the public.

Now even if there were no other seats, and I hadn't booked one, I wouldn't be having a rant at people who reserved seats before me, be it individual seats, or a whole coach.

Standing, well, I don't see the complaint in this case - I just see it as a hissy fit that they couldn't get the quiet coach. :roll:

 

[itsjamierawr]

I've noticed SouthEastern reserve blocks of a coach sometimes, usually for school trips - I got on one as the school trip was coming off and noticed the penalty for sitting in a reserved block of seats was £50 and removing the reservation sticker from the window was £200 or something like that! This was also done in the coach at the end of the train - I assume to make revenue checks much easier as they can just go "yeah everyone in that area has a ticket"

 

[BestWestern]

Nope, they're still ticket holders, and members of the public.

Now even if there were no other seats, and I hadn't booked one, I wouldn't be having a rant at people who reserved seats before me, be it individual seats, or a whole coach.

Standing, well, I don't see the complaint in this case - I just see it as a hissy fit that they couldn't get the quiet coach. :roll:

You're free to be deliberately pedantic for as long as you wish , but be assured that a reserved coach with staff barring access is indeed 'Private' and is not therefore available to the general travelling public.

Anyhow, on to more important issues!

 

[work-traveller]

I recall Brangelina chartering a Pendelino from Euston to Glasgow some years ago. Evidently VT have approx. two chartered trains per week during the football season.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50476

 

[Marklund]

You're free to be deliberately pedantic for as long as you wish , but be assured that a reserved coach with staff barring access is indeed 'Private' and is not therefore available to the general travelling public.

Anyhow, on to more important issues!

OK, that's fine. You deal with your didn't happen hypothetical full and bursting at the seams won't let you in to the reserved carriage situation.

 

[infobleep]

Nope, they're still ticket holders, and members of the public.

Now even if there were no other seats, and I hadn't booked one, I wouldn't be having a rant at people who reserved seats before me, be it individual seats, or a whole coach.

Standing, well, I don't see the complaint in this case - I just see it as a hissy fit that they couldn't get the quiet coach. :roll:

Unless a seat reservation is made, where offered, the ticket price does not include the use of a seat. Therefore if a whole coach was booked and people had to stand it would be tough luck. Rail companies are allowed to make people have to stand if they wish.

 

[Llanigraham]

OK, that's fine. You deal with your didn't happen hypothetical full and bursting at the seams won't let you in to the reserved carriage situation.

Tough, sunshine!
If a party have booked and paid for a carriage for themselves and the rest of the train is rammed then you have no right to enter their area.
Just remember that your ticket doesn't give you a right to a seat, just the right to travel.