Stagecoach East Scotland

[Jordan Adam]

I just find it unlikely they’ll stay on the X58 if it’s being extended to St Andrews. The X61 was an option I had considered.

Looking at the consultation timetables I suspect the X58 and X60 may interwork at St Andrews. So that would rule out Panther LEs as they can't operate the X60 between Leven and St Andrews.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Looking at the consultation timetables I suspect the X58 and X60 may interwork at St Andrews. So that would rule out Panther LEs as they can't operate the X60 between Leven and St Andrews.

Ah I didn’t know that. If that is the case with the final timetable, then they will have to change routes. I had wondered if they may move them away from Aberhill, 2 to Perth for the enhanced X56 and 1 to Dunfermline maybe? With standard coaches heading to Aberhill.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Ah I didn’t know that. If that is the case with the final timetable, then they will have to change routes. I had wondered if they may move them away from Aberhill, 2 to Perth for the enhanced X56 and 1 to Dunfermline maybe? With standard coaches heading to Aberhill.

Perth won't be operating the X56 from November AFAIK. All of the workings are moving to Dunfermline. Additionally Perth didn't lose any coaches when the X56 was reduced, so wouldn't make sense for them to gain any (if they were retaining the X56 workings, of course)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Perth won't be operating the X56 from November AFAIK. All of the workings are moving to Dunfermline. Additionally Perth didn't lose any coaches when the X56 was reduced, so wouldn't make sense for them to gain any (if they were retaining the X56 workings, of course)

Well if that is indeed the case then I wouldn’t be surprised if all of the LE’s end up at Dunfermline then.

I only suggested Perth picking up extra LE’s as they often use them on other routes now, which admittedly are probably fine with standard Enviro300’s etc.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Well if that is indeed the case then I wouldn’t be surprised if all of the LE’s end up at Dunfermline then.

I suspect you may be correct.

I don't think it's been reported on here yet that the Panther LE Demo YX19 MMF has been painted in Stagecoach Distance livery and at Dunfermline depot.

 

[overthewater]

I'm lead to believe the B8 are going on the X61.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I suspect you may be correct.

I don't think it's been reported on here yet that the Panther LE Demo YX19 MMF has been painted in Stagecoach Distance livery and at Dunfermline depot.

I wonder if Stagecoach have bought it then? I know it had been on a long term loan to Llew Jones and was even repainted out of the demo livery and into a T10 branded version of the Traws Cymru livery.

I also wonder if it might take up 54520 perhaps? Seems logical. I guess that depends if they’ve bought it though.

 

[overthewater]

Most of the Perthshire timetables have yet to appear on the Stagecoach Website, however Bustimes.org does have them. Has anyone else spotted the all new X16 timetable which has sneaked in.

Within Kirkcaldy, it does seem 34/a will go up Fair isle Road then go alone Chapel level to the Retail park how it can't go straight up and do Robert Adam drive is madness.

As its stand within Kirkcaldy: Daytime Dunnikier Estate, Robert Adam drive area and parts of Gallowton - Park Road and Oswald Road will no longer have any buses after 7th Nov. It's still unclear as talks are still on going.

 

[overthewater]

It seems the council has stepped in to save a few of the cut services. It's unclear who will operate the services.

Fife bus routes saved as council subsidises services | Fife Council

www.fife.gov.uk

Stagecoach announced changes to their commercial network in late August and while some of the changes were minor changes to timetables, some involved withdrawing services completely. The main impacts were on the following services:

Service 14 - Dunnikier Estate – Kirkcaldy Bus Station (Monday - Saturday daytime journeys withdrawn)

Service 36 – Glenrothes – Falkland – Newburgh - Perth (no Sunday journeys)

Service 77 - Gauldry – Wormit – Newport on Tay – Dundee (service withdrawn no service between Dundee and Gauldry, reduced service elsewhere. Monday to Sunday)

Service 81 - Parkneuk – Dunfermline - Glenrothes (service withdrawn, Parkneuk without daytime service, Monday to Saturday)

Service 33 – Kirkcaldy – Cardenden – Cowdenbeath – Halbeath P&R – QMH – Dunfermline (early morning, evening and Saturday and Sunday journeys withdrawn or curtailed at Cowdenbeath)

Following discussions with Stagecoach some minor timetabling changes were reversed and separate discussions with Moffat & Williamson confirmed that they will register a bus service commercially to offset the removal of the Stagecoach Service 77 which will make sure a service remains from Gauldry to Dundee.

The council is now stepping in to make sure the remaining socially necessary withdrawn services (service 14, 33, 36 & 81) continue to operate. Replacement services are set to start on November 7, 2022.

Fife Council Leader, David Ross, said: “These are services that the council has agreed to subsidise to cover gaps that need to be filled in the commercial system and routes that have historically been supported. The removal of these services would have a significant impact on the local communities, particularly those who rely on public transport. In turn, the council stepped in and tendered for alternative, replacement services.

“We are committed to creating a fairer Fife and supporting those hardest hit by the cost of living crisis. The services maintained will reassure people in our communities that where there is a social need, the council will take whatever steps it can to support the provision of essential transport, including bus services.”

“By stepping in the main impacts of the changes proposed by commercial service have hopefully been avoided.”

Timetable information with the new bus times will be updated at the bus stops affected from Monday 7 November as well as being available on the Traveline Scotland website www.travelinescotland.com

 

[Fundee on Tay]

Just seen an X7 going through Montrose with the destination of ‘Aberdeen Union Square’ rather than ‘Stonehaven for Aberdeen’

Has the EU law meaning the destination has to change every 31 miles been repealed?

 

[Volvodart]

Bluebird buses change to that after the last "for" point is passed.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Has the EU law meaning the destination has to change every 31 miles been repealed?

To be clear, the law isn't that "the destination must be changed every 31 miles", the law is (paraphrased) "drivers on routes longer than 50km must be given breaks which are longer and more frequent than on routes less than 50km" and "the most prominent text on the destination display must be the registered final destination of the route". The bus companies can't/don't want to give drivers more favourable conditions so they split long routes into sections of less than 50km each (rule 1), but because of rule 2 they can't show the actual final destination as the main text on the front as the route is no longer registered as terminating there, thus they have to show the nearer destination (and then "For [final destination]" usually underneath and/or in smaller font size).

 

[Jordan Adam]

To be clear, the law isn't that "the destination must be changed every 31 miles", the law is (paraphrased) "drivers on routes longer than 50km must be given breaks which are longer and more frequent than on routes less than 50km" and "the most prominent text on the destination display must be the registered final destination of the route". The bus companies can't/don't want to give drivers more favourable conditions so they split long routes into sections of less than 50km each (rule 1), but because of rule 2 they can't show the actual final destination as the main text on the front as the route is no longer registered as terminating there, thus they have to show the nearer destination (and then "For [final destination]" usually underneath and/or in smaller font size).

A while back someone enquired to the traffic commissioner regarding the use of the "for..." displays on the Bluebird 10 and 35 and the response they got was that the "for" displays are not a requirement and that a 10 leaving Inverness for example could still show "10 Aberdeen" even though the route is registered in sections. This is because the "final destination" doesn't have to be the exact location a route is registered to but rather a description of the route or where it goes.

 

[Fifescottish]

Assume with all the changes today there will have been a shift of vehicles between depots?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Assume with all the changes today there will have been a shift of vehicles between depots?

Looks like a few of the LE’s have moved to Dunfermline.

 

[PaulMc7]

Perth has a lot of cancellations today going by the list put out on Twitter but when actually broken down it looks like most of the services are down one or two driver duties at most which is a bit of an improvement on the way it was a couple of months ago.

There seems to be a lot less cancellations in Fife too with only one for the 19 tweeted out so far today.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Perth has a lot of cancellations today going by the list put out on Twitter but when actually broken down it looks like most of the services are down one or two driver duties at most which is a bit of an improvement on the way it was a couple of months ago.

Driver duties are much more complex than how you make out. I think it equates to somewhere around 10 or 11 duties missing at Perth today. Perth's peak vehicle requirement has remained neutral (whereas all other depots have seen a small reduction), so I'm not really surprised there's been little improvement on short-notice cancellations at Perth.

The ticket machines failed to update overnight so the tracking on Bus Times (and the Stagecoach app, etc.) is a bit of a mess today.

 

[PaulMc7]

Driver duties are much more complex than how you make out. I think it equates to somewhere around 10 or 11 duties missing at Perth today. Perth's peak vehicle requirement has remained neutral (whereas all other depots have seen a small reduction), so I'm not really surprised there's been little improvement on short-notice cancellations at Perth.

The ticket machines failed to update overnight so the tracking on Bus Times (and the Stagecoach app, etc.) is a bit of a mess today.

I didn't say anything that made them seem less complex? I know they are. The other thing that makes it look much worse is that a lot of Perth services are short circular routes so naturally it affects more individual journeys than elsewhere.

 

[sannox]

It seems the council has stepped in to save a few of the cut services. It's unclear who will operate the services.

Fife bus routes saved as council subsidises services | Fife Council

www.fife.gov.uk

Has any of this been cleared up given services were due to start today?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Has any of this been cleared up given services were due to start today?

Yeah, Stagecoach are operating the revised services. The timetables have been updated on Stagecoach's website: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/servi...rticle?SituationId=ID-17/10/2022-09:45:19:466

(I see no purpose in quoting anything from the above URL)

 

[overthewater]

The ticket machines failed to update overnight so the tracking on Bus Times (and the Stagecoach app, etc.) is a bit of a mess today.

That explains why some of the service ( ie ones with NEW numbers ) have got free travel today, lucky passengers.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

This is what I’ve found to have moved from the coaches side of things:

53813-53814 - Glenrothes to Aberhill
54512-54514 - Aberhill to Dunfermline
54515-54516 - Perth to Dunfermline

There’s probably more but that’s all I’ve noticed so far. The X56 seems to be split between Dunfermline and Perth now, which is presumably why Perth has kept 54517-54519.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

This is what I’ve found to have moved from the coaches side of things:

53813-53814 - Glenrothes to Aberhill
54512-54514 - Aberhill to Dunfermline
54515-54516 - Perth to Dunfermline

There’s probably more but that’s all I’ve noticed so far. The X56 seems to be split between Dunfermline and Perth now, which is presumably why Perth has kept 54517-54519.

It's fairly difficult to keep on top of things, but in addition to those you've noted:

11181 Arbroath to Aberhill
13042/4/5 Aberhill to Arbroath (13041 is at Volvo, I assume it'll follow eventually)
13117 Perth to Arbroath
15625/6/7/30 Arbroath to Aberhill (again, I assume 15628 will head for Aberhill once 13041 is fixed)
19156 Glenrothes to Dunfermline
25211 Glenrothes to Aberhill
26113/4 Arbroath to Aberhill
26115 St Andrews to Aberhill
27125 Glenrothes to Dunfermline
27551 Dunfermline to Perth
27552 Aberhill to Arbroath
27600 Arbroath to Reserve
27606, 27915 Dunfermline to Arbroath
27608 Perth to Blairgowrie
27613 Dunfermline to Perth
28661/2 Reserve to Aberhill
47161/47214 Bluebird reserve to Glenrothes (unconfirmed)
47233/5 Bluebird reserve to Arbroath (perhaps just on loan)
47326/32 Dunfermline to Glenrothes
47870 Arbroath to Perth
53721/2 Perth to Blairgowrie
53801/2 Aberhill to Perth

The ex-West Scotland Scania Enviro 400s are also floating about Fife, but due to limitations in Stagecoach's tracking system they don't show up on their app yet (or any other data feeds), as they need added to an "East Scotland" list at their end, before they track correctly. It looks like some depots have gotten around this by putting 99xxx numbers on their ticket machines temporarily. It's a similar situation with the Solos which have just arrived from Bluebird.

It would also appear that Rennie's (Cowdenbeath) have increased involvement on service runs, mainly the daytime 14, 84 and AZ1 and the odd journey on the 33.

 

[ajrm]

To be clear, the law isn't that "the destination must be changed every 31 miles", the law is (paraphrased) "drivers on routes longer than 50km must be given breaks which are longer and more frequent than on routes less than 50km" and "the most prominent text on the destination display must be the registered final destination of the route". The bus companies can't/don't want to give drivers more favourable conditions so they split long routes into sections of less than 50km each (rule 1), but because of rule 2 they can't show the actual final destination as the main text on the front as the route is no longer registered as terminating there, thus they have to show the nearer destination (and then "For [final destination]" usually underneath and/or in smaller font size).

That's a bit of an over-simplification. Some drivers might see fewer hours in a week = better conditions, others would rather earn more. However the main reason is that running some services at a depot under EU rules and some under domestic rules means effectively you have two different sets of drivers with all the inefficiencies that entails. If a driver on the domestic rota does a shift that comes into scope of EU rules then they can't legally drive under domestic rules for another couple of weeks. Being able to run everything under domestic rules helps considerably (especially in the current climate where drivers are at a premium).

 

[computerSaysNo]

Some drivers might see fewer hours in a week = better conditions, others would rather earn more.

By "more favourable conditions" I meant fewer hours on the same pay.

However the main reason is that running some services at a depot under EU rules and some under domestic rules means effectively you have two different sets of drivers with all the inefficiencies that entails.

As far as I'm aware, each set of rules only details the minimum/least favourable conditions for drivers which can be operated legally, with the EU rules requiring more breaks. As far as I'm aware this means that if you comply with the EU rules then you're also/automatically complying with the GB rules as well.
The point being that if rotas were planned to comply with EU rules then it wouldn't matter whether a given journey could technically have operated under GB rules, as you're already meeting (and exceeding) the minimum requirements.


I know I'm oversimplifying a lot of the above but the spirit of it should still be true.

 

[Simon75]

By "more favourable conditions" I meant fewer hours on the same pay.

As far as I'm aware, each set of rules only details the minimum/least favourable conditions for drivers which can be operated legally, with the EU rules requiring more breaks. As far as I'm aware this means that if you comply with the EU rules then you're also/automatically complying with the GB rules as well.
The point being that if rotas were planned to comply with EU rules then it wouldn't matter whether a given journey could technically have operated under GB rules, as you're already meeting (and exceeding) the minimum requirements.


I know I'm oversimplifying a lot of the above but the spirit of it should still be true.

Mods ... maybe this could be in a new thread ?

 

[roadierway77]

I realised the other day I've not seen an Optare Versa for a while, and indeed according to bustimes.org the majority of the East Scotland Versas have been withdrawn. Anybody have any idea why? Was it something to do with the bus fire in Dunfermline a while back, I know that involved a Versa

 

[Fifescottish]

I think there was at least 3 fires, I recall 2 in Rosyth and 1 near Dunfermline bus station?

 

[150249]

I realised the other day I've not seen an Optare Versa for a while, and indeed according to bustimes.org the majority of the East Scotland Versas have been withdrawn. Anybody have any idea why? Was it something to do with the bus fire in Dunfermline a while back, I know that involved a Versa

The only Stagecoach south west sent up were in terrible condition. Barnstaple didn't maintain them well. Two of them (255 and 260) caught fire.

 

[overthewater]

Is there any news on the new electric buses and when they are now due.