Staff didn't like ticket- so they called police.

[Segedunum]

(Detail removed- but I used a valid ticket that the gateline staff didn't like)

The ticket was accepted without question on the train (other than the guard making sure I knew this was a slower way), and I headed to the gateline. Ticket didn't work, as I expected.

Gateline staff didn't accept it and escorted me to the ticket office, citing that the ticket gates are always right (not quite the truth is it).

The woman at the ticket office was very very rude and confrontational. I know that's the usual line from people on this part of the forum, but she was not at all pleasant. She refused to accept anything from NRE and basically, I was wrong and she was right.

I said I didn't wish to purchase another ticket and would like to leave (my bus was due). Her response was to then demand that the BTP were called and the gateline staff member radioed through. Not, "pay up or we'll get BTP", just jumped straight to getting them involved.

At this point, I panicked and just paid for a new ticket. Again, maybe another cliche for this forum but I have horrible anxiety and cannot deal with confrontation. I really just wanted to get away. I however missed my bus and it was a damp trudge to my friend's place.

I appreciate that the ticket is a bit unusual, albeit a valid one. The new fare paid was £13 (so I was allowed to use my railcard, that's one plus I guess).

But was such an attitude really necessary? Practically yelling at me from the outset then getting police involved as soon as I say I wasn't going to bend over for them? BTP never materialised.

I was never abusive or confrontational. I did get somewhat panicky but didn't get personal or shout down the place. Granted, I probably could have just walked out, but I don't know what powers the barrier staff had/whether police were around, running off probably wouldn't have been a good look!

In summary- I used a valid ticket, they didn't like it, called the police, forced me to pay up and also retained my ticket (I do however have the new ticket).

 

[Hadders]

Clearly the attitude of the staff is wrong and you’re more than entitled to make a complaint.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you make a complaint and give details of the ticket, the Routeing is likely to be amended. You need to weigh up the potential impact of the increase you might see in your future travel costs against dealing raising the complaint.

I’m not defending the staff here but just trying to point out the pitfalls.

There are a couple of fares I regularly use that could be considered loopholes. I’ve never had them queried but I definitely don’t want them bought to the attention of the train company so i’ll Be very wary about how I complain if/when the time comes.

 

[sheff1]

Anyone who claims that "the ticket gates are always right" should not be allowed anywhere near a gateline.

 

[RJ]

Gateline staff didn't accept it and escorted me to the ticket office, citing that the ticket gates are always right (not quite the truth is it).

The woman at the ticket office was very very rude and confrontational. I know that's the usual line from people on this part of the forum, but she was not at all pleasant. She refused to accept anything from NRE and basically, I was wrong and she was right.

I said I didn't wish to purchase another ticket and would like to leave (my bus was due). Her response was to then demand that the BTP were called and the gateline staff member radioed through. Not, "pay up or we'll get BTP", just jumped straight to getting them involved.

At this point, I panicked and just paid for a new ticket. Again, maybe another cliche for this forum but I have horrible anxiety and cannot deal with confrontation. I really just wanted to get away. I however missed my bus and it was a damp trudge to my friend's place.

I appreciate that the ticket is a loophole, albeit a valid one. The new fare paid was £13 (so I was allowed to use my railcard, that's one plus I guess).

But was such an attitude really necessary? Practically yelling at me from the outset then getting police involved as soon as I say I wasn't going to bend over for them? BTP never materialised.

I was never abusive or confrontational. I did get somewhat panicky but didn't get personal or shout down the place. Granted, I probably could have just walked out, but I don't know what powers the barrier staff had/whether police were around, running off probably wouldn't have been a good look!

In summary- I used a valid loophole, they didn't like it, called the police, forced me to pay up and also retained my ticket (I do however have the new ticket).

Sometimes you need to speak to these people in a language that they understand. If you're too polite, they will view that as an admission that you are trying it on by bamboozling them and it will get their backs up and leave the door open for them to hassle you again in future. They might still tell the BTP you are abusive, just to get them to show up. Be neither polite nor abusive to them, just be assertive.

You deal with these people by speaking up for yourself and not worrying about being nice, or what they might think about you. Do you think they could care less about making you out of pocket, missing your bus and having to trudge your way home? The answer to that is no, so why do you care about their feelings? You don't even need to get wordy and quote chapter and verse with them. Explain that your ticket is valid, once and instruct them to let you go. If they are not listening to you then remove yourself from the situation. There won't be any comeback.

TOCs usually stand up for their staff, unless someone posts the exchange on social media and causes a PR disaster that gets senior management and directors demanding it is sorted out. Saying a member of staff was confrontational during a ticket dispute without proof and a will to go public is a fast way to get your complaint binned. In a unionised industry it's more hassle than it's worth to chase up customer complaints about conduct and they are not going to sympathise with you in any way. As previously stated, the railways by now are aware of the customer type who seek value from their tickets in a legitimate manner so you can definitely expect that element of the matter to be dealt with efficiently - but not in your favour.

 

[Starmill]

Anyone who claims that "the ticket gates are always right" should not be allowed anywhere near a gateline.

This is something I've personally heard from VT gateline staff on several occasions. I was even once told that the ticket gates knew I had already used my ticket and couldn't use it again by the staff at Crewe. I was, in fact, not using it "again" at all, as it was a Zone u1256 to Manchester ticket and it had already been used to exit the Underground gates. No doubt it was this which led to it being rejected as 'previously used'. I was still treated with suspicion and told not to use the ticket again (even though it was still valid to continue on many subsequent days from Crewe to Manchester).

 

[Silverdale]

One thing to bear in mind is that if you make a complaint and give details of the ticket, the Routeing is likely to be amended. You need to weigh up the potential impact of the increase you might see in your future travel costs against dealing raising the complaint.

If the complaint is not simply about the attitude shown, but that the OP was required to purchase a new ticket and probably feels intimidated from using the same or similarly priced tickets in future, not making the complaint negates any benefits of choosing alternatively priced tickets, regardless of whether the routeing is amended.

BTW, I would be surprised from the numerous clues given in the OP's posts, that if the TOC responsible for pricing that ticket is reading this thread, they can't deduce which ticket it is, with or without it being spelled out in a complaint.

 

[gray1404]

I would send a copy of the new ticket to Virgin Trains by email along with an outline of what happened. Do not mention your valid ticket held, just state that you had one and you were forced to buy a new ticket as a condition of exiting the system. Tell them that as you had a valid ticket already, the ticket they forced you to buy in totally unused and as it was issued due to their error you expect a full refund without any admin fee.

 

[Segedunum]

I think what annoyed me most was that the staff, instead of assuming I was doing something a bit 'off' (which is fair enough, to the untrained soul it would look weird at first) they just assumed I was blindly picking a destination that was much cheaper and trying it on for a laugh. You shouldn't take it personally but when you've had a horrible few weeks (irrelevant, but personal life has been quite a challenge recently) it does get to you more than it should.

I think the sort of person I am, and having never been in such a situation, i just panicked and didnt know how to react.

Ironically I'm a trainee journalist and usually it's me trying to talk to the police, not the other way around

Its life experience, what can I say. Some very good advice on this thread too.

I'm off to the Czech Republic tomorrow for a much needed break- trying not to let this whole sorry incident not put too much of a dampener on it.

 

[maniacmartin]

One thing I find useful is to carry a printout of the itinerary from NRE. That way you don't need to faff around getting the intinerary to display (and possibly forgetting to specify the via point). You can then just hand over the itinerary

 

[Segedunum]

I would send a copy of the new ticket to Virgin Trains by email along with an outline of what happened. Do not mention your valid ticket held, just state that you had one and you were forced to buy a new ticket as a condition of exiting the system. Tell them that as you had a valid ticket already, the ticket they forced you to buy in totally unused and as it was issued due to their error you expect a full refund without any admin fee.

Cheekily, the gateline staff member snatched the ticket from me, and scrawled all over it to mark it as used.

Not that that really makes a difference, as it wasn't actually used.

 

[Kite159]

Sounds like it's a gateline staff who dreams one day at working at Blackpool North.

Send the email to Virgin and if no joy go to the media, as they love a good negative story about the railways

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't have paid anything. I'd have said that I was following the itinerary I was issued with, and shown them that.

I'm also fortunate in that one of the jobs I do has given me a lot of experience in being assertive. This has helped me immensely when I was mistreated at places like Slough and Lewisham. I'll change tactics depending on whether it is me who is being mistreated, or if I am a witness to someone else being mistreated; if I am fighting for others' rights, I'll be more authoritative with them.

Nearly all my tickets are now bought from a retailer who I have contacts at, and I know they will back me up in the event of a dispute, as they have already done for other members of this forum.

The problem is that you cannot win: if you complain, you risk the fare being withdrawn. But to not complain would allow unacceptable behaviour to go unchallenged.

Some gateline staff do behave in an unacceptable manner unfortunately, and companies like Virgin have no apparent desire to do anything about this problem.

 

[Segedunum]

She wanted a second opinion and unfortunately that second opinion was from an absolutely vile member of ticket office staff. Agreeing to radio for BTP however I cannot forgive.

 

[yorkie]

See, for the service I was using, NRE had no itinerary. The connections didn't match. Pre May 2018 I believe they did and it was the TPE you were directed to, not the EMT.

Just use a booking engine that allows additional interchange time.

I no longer use 'good value' tickets without itineraries; I almost always ensure I have an itinerary even if I use an earlier/later train.

It is much harder to prove validity otherwise (not that there should be any onus on you, but it can cause matters to escalate, resulting in withdrawal of fares that are perceived as too good value by TOCs)

Obviously if staff were unwilling to believe me at all, saying "here's proof it's valid but it's not for the service I chose and is for a one later" would probably not have garnered a positive response.

Join us at a fares workshop and we'll cover how to handle such situations if you like; or raise it at a forum meal. As others have said, there are certain ways you need to speak to these people.

I'd ask questions and make simple statements e.g. "is my ticket valid by the route shown on my itinerary?" If they say yes, you win. If they say no, then a good retailer - whose reputation is being damaged - would assist you.

I'll be happy to tell you about some of my experiences encountering such individuals that you encountered, as I make sure I always win, but I don't want to go into too much detail on the forum.

For the EMT services however it did, as I re-discovered as I was walking away down towards Heaton Norris once I'd fought the website enough to make it work.

Of course, if NRE is merrily willing to send me via Stockport on one service to alight at Manchester, then the interpretation is that it's valid that way on all applicable services.

True but it's much better to obtain an itinerary from the booking site, because you can simply show your itinerary to anyone who questions it and they are unlikely to take it further. It empowers you even if the validity is no greater.

For the record, I don't believe that the gateline staff member was malicious, I just think she was clueless.

She wanted a second opinion and unfortunately that second opinion was from an absolutely vile member of ticket office staff. Agreeing to radio for BTP however I can't forgive.

At least they didn't tell BTP you had a gun. I've seen Paddington staff do that before. I won't be forgiving them either.

Because I was presenting a ticket not 'usually' valid (under what WebTIS etc. would say) plus ending short miles from where the ticket was for, they seem to have just gotten so confused that they employed hostile tactics, or just really really wanted an argument. I truly believe that the BTP was less a reality and more a threat- but I wasn't going to test that!

I really would not admit to finishing short either. Just say you thought break of journey was permitted.

 

[_toommm_]

See, for the service I was using, NRE had no itinerary. The connections didn't match. Pre May 2018 I believe they did and it was the TPE you were directed to, not the EMT.

Obviously if staff were unwilling to believe me at all, saying "here's proof it's valid but it's not for the service I chose and is for a one later" would probably not have garnered a positive response.

For the EMT services however it did, as I re-discovered as I was walking away down towards Heaton Norris once I'd fought the website enough to make it work.

Of course, if NRE is merrily willing to send me via Stockport on one service to alight at Manchester, then the interpretation is that it's valid that way on all applicable services.

For the record, I don't believe that the gateline staff member was malicious, I just think she was clueless.

She wanted a second opinion and unfortunately that second opinion was from an absolutely vile member of ticket office staff. Agreeing to radio for BTP however I can't forgive.

Because I was presenting a ticket not 'usually' valid (under what WebTIS etc. would say) plus ending short miles from where the ticket was for, they seem to have just gotten so confused that they employed hostile tactics, or just really really wanted an argument. I truly believe that the BTP was less a reality and more a threat- but I wasn't going to test that!

Would you care to message me the ticket you used? I used a similarly obscure one to get from Sheffield to Manchester and Sheffield to Stockport, and had the BTP threatened on me too by a TPE guard.

The good news is though, is that even though I complained to TPE about the way this was handled, and a nice EMT guard fully accepted my itinerary, but was going to report the odd routeing, my loophole hasn't been removed nearly a year later.

Anyone who claims that "the ticket gates are always right" should not be allowed anywhere near a gateline.

Someone who was apparently a "manager" at King's Cross tried to tell me this a couple of years ago, when he told @Hadders his valid ticket was invalid. In the end he let allowed the ticket to be used "this time" which is their codeword for "I'm not admitting I'm wrong". It's not a mentality I can identify with, but I am well versed in dealing with such individuals.

 

[Silverdale]

True but it's much better to obtain an itinerary from the booking site, because you can simply show your itinerary to anyone who questions it and they are unlikely to take it further. It empowers you even if the validity is no greater.

It isn't always possible to be in possession of such an itinerary. Quite apart from the obvious case where you purchase from a ticket office or machine and don't specify one.

For instance, tomorrow I will be using the return portion of an Off-Peak return. But I will be traveling on a different day, at a different time and by a different (and unusual, but valid) route than the itinerary against which my ticket was sold online.

The whole point of a flexible ticket is that it's flexible. If using such a ticket ties one to a specific itinerary, by virtue of having to prove its validity, it may as well be a fixed time ticket.

 

[_toommm_]

It isn't always possible to be in possession of such an itinerary. Quite apart from the obvious case where you purchase from a ticket office or machine and don't specify one.

For instance, tomorrow I will be using the return portion of an Off-Peak return. But I will be traveling on a different day, at a different time and by a different (and unusual, but valid) route than the itinerary against which my ticket was sold online.

The whole point of a flexible ticket is that it's flexible. If using such a ticket ties one to a specific itinerary, by virtue of having to prove its validity, it may as well be a fixed time ticket.

But generating an itinerary there and then and proving that that is valid with the same priced ticket you paid can help massively

 

[yorkie]

It isn't always possible to be in possession of such an itinerary.

In the OPs case it would be.

Quite apart from the obvious case where you purchase from a ticket office or machine and don't specify one.

True, but I would strongly advise against this for the scenario applicable to the OP.

For instance, tomorrow I will be using the return portion of an Off-Peak return. But I will be traveling on a different day, at a different time and by a different (and unusual, but valid) route than the itinerary against which my ticket was sold online.

Yes but presumably by a route that would be deemed universally "reasonable"?

The whole point of a flexible ticket is that it's flexible. If using such a ticket ties one to a specific itinerary, by virtue of having to prove its validity, it may as well be a fixed time ticket.

I'm not talking about using tickets at a different time to what was booked; as I said above you could book a different time and use that as evidence of validity of the route.

 

[Silverdale]

But generating an itinerary there and then and proving that that is valid with the same priced ticket you paid can help massively

But that is precisely what the OP did, by showing an itinerary generated for the route, but not the specific train, and it cut no ice with a gateline member of staff who was not interested in proof of any kind.

 

[Segedunum]

But that is precisely what the OP did, by showing an itinerary generated for the route, but not the specific train, and it cut no ice with a gateline member of staff who was not interested in proof of any kind.

I didn't even get to that stage as NRE kept repeatedly crashing. Indedd she didn't want any proof at all.

 

[yorkie]

Few staff refuse to look at itineraries, but if the matter continues to get escalated, sooner or later someone is going to say "but the passenger is following their itinerary; we can't charge them again" and the persecution/harassment will stop.

I am not saying it solves all issues at an early stage but it is a valuable tool and both reduces conflict and resolves escalations most of the time. Ultimately some issues do end up having to be resolved by customer services, and I am aware of issues where the retailer got in contact with a relevant contact at the TOC and the matter was immediately dropped. I am not aware of any cases with itineraries that were escalated and remain unresolved, despite being aware of many instances.

 

[Silverdale]

Yes but presumably by a route that would be deemed universally "reasonable"?

I can produce an itinerary for my new routeing from NRE, so I take it it's valid. I don't know how to tell whether any particular member of staff checking the ticket would deem the routeing to be "reasonable". There is a more obvious and shorter route, which is also quicker. The reason for taking the longer, slower route is that I now want to break my journey at certain point along it.

 

[yorkie]

I can produce an itinerary for my new routeing from NRE, so I take it it's valid. I don't know how to tell whether any particular member of staff checking the ticket would deem the routeing to be "reasonable". There is a more obvious and shorter route, which is also quicker. The reason for taking the longer, slower route is that I now want to break my journey at certain point along it.

If it undercuts the intermediate fare, and there is a gateline, then you too risk the police being called on you.

If not I'd be surprised if you have any issues.

RDG plan to stop this by making all tickets singles, and making you pay for each segment of track that you use. This will make such journeys far, far more expensive than they are today. See this thread.

 

[Silverdale]

If it undercuts the intermediate fare, and there is a gateline, then you too risk the police being called on you.

It does undercut the intermediate fare.

There is no gateline.

 

[js1000]

I really cannot stand arrogant RPIs who threaten to call/get the police. It just worsens the situation and needlessly turns it from a civil one to a criminal one. Just because you're in a uniform with a revenue collection badge does not make you a judge in a court.

 

[furlong]

Having a printed itinerary from an accredited website is crucial in a case such as this, as passing through your destination to 'bounce' off a different routeing point (because the first destination routeing point you pass through is not 'appropriate') is something the original routeing guide explicitly ruled out (top of page F4) so you shouldn't be surprised by arguments that any presumed validity is an "obvious" mistake that depends on interpretation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least they didn't tell BTP you had a gun. I've seen Paddington staff do that before. I won't be forgiving them either.

!!

Anyone doing that where there is quite obviously no gun should be prosecuted for wasting police time, which can (and should, in this kind of case, because of the genuine threat posed by terrorism of this kind) be met with a custodial sentence.

 

[RJ]

!!

Anyone doing that where there is quite obviously no gun should be prosecuted for wasting police time, which can (and should, in this kind of case, because of the genuine threat posed by terrorism of this kind) be met with a custodial sentence.

FGW were more than happy to let the matter go because even when provided with a video recording of the staff saying "call the police and tell them he's got gun (sic)", the staff concerned denied any knowledge of it.

It wouldn't be the first or last time people have lied to the police in a malicious manner to kick off a time wasting investigation to annoy someone. Some staff on the railways love doing this - then others wonder why the BTP response times are so long when they are genuinely needed.

I think the best one I had was when Southeastern called the BTP over the same kind of gateline issue. Valid ticket, gateline staff with an odd attitude to customer service. 4 BTP officers turned up and the whole compliment of station staff turned out to enjoy the show. Meanwhile, some troublemakers who were at the station before I got there decided to leg it down the line and into the tunnels, causing a 3 hour service suspension on HS1 and the Eurostar. A very preventable problem that ended up costing probably 6 figures.

I've been working on stations for 7 years and have never had the time or inclination to persecute customers with a valid ticket or call out the BTP for utterly stupid reasons. However elsewhere, the view of some staff is "we pay for the BTP and can use them for whatever we want." I was under the impression the police was an emergency service.

 

[whhistle]

Unpopular but don't be too hard on the gateline people.

Remember, the fare system is stupid and broken.
There's so many silly this and that, it's a struggle for ticket office staff with the systems to keep up to date, let alone gateline staff, who are not really retail trained.

I've been in arguments before with people when I wanted to go a particular way and they said it isn't valid, when I knew it was.

Remember, when you are proved right, the staff member will be embarassed and is highly likely not to say sorry. If you continue to engage with them down the path of "ha - so I was right", that will not end well for either party.

FYI: No gateline or ticket office staff member can stop you leaving the station.

Ask the staff member to photocopy the ticket. Give them the copy and tell them they can investigate at another time and go for your bus. They probably will just to satisfy them being right. But upon reflection at another time (and you not being there!), they may well realise you were right. In the heat of the moment, it's likely something will be missed.

Also, a sure fire way to get staff members backs up is filming or trying to photograph them.
Do this and expect harsh responses in return. Even if they are wrong. If you're desperate for some sort of proof they are in the wrong, ask for written confirmation.

Remember, even in your work place, if someone started filming you, even if you were in the wrong, you wouldn't like it either.

 

[yorkie]

Unpopular but don't be too hard on the gateline people.

I won't be too hard on anyone, but I will criticise people if they behave in an appalling manner and I will criticise train companies who have insufficient checks and safeguards in place to ensure customers are treated appropriately.

Remember, the fare system is stupid and broken.

If in doubt as to whether a ticket is valid, then accept it! It's not difficult.

There's so many silly this and that, it's a struggle for ticket office staff with the systems to keep up to date, let alone gateline staff, who are not really retail trained.

If there is doubt about whether or not a restriction applies, then consumer law stipulates that the interpretation that is most favourable to the customer is that which should prevail.

I've been in arguments before with people when I wanted to go a particular way and they said it isn't valid, when I knew it was.

Which is why I recommend buying a ticket in conjunction with an itinerary, if you are using a route that isn't always entirely obvious, as this then makes it absolutely clear what the contractual position is. Simply show the itinerary and there are no grounds for any sort of argument.

Remember, when you are proved right, the staff member will be embarassed and is highly likely not to say sorry.

This is the polar opposite of any other industry; train companies need to change their ways.

If you continue to engage with them down the path of "ha - so I was right", that will not end well for either party.

It's about being assertive. However if a customer reacted that way, staff should just accept it and not escalate the situation.

FYI: No gateline or ticket office staff member can stop you leaving the station.

Though they may try!

Also, a sure fire way to get staff members backs up is filming or trying to photograph them.

That's interesting as some train companies are encouraging/equipping their staff to start filming customers in disputes. However I suggest this conundrum and apparent paradox is discussed in a separate thread as it's a whole new discussion in its own right.

Do this and expect harsh responses in return. Even if they are wrong.

If so, that could lead to their dismissal, but please create a thread to discuss that further.

If you're desperate for some sort of proof they are in the wrong, ask for written confirmation.

Agreed but in practice you are unlikely to get it. But the fact you asked and it was refused can be noted.

Remember, even in your work place, if someone started filming you, even if you were in the wrong, you wouldn't like it either.

As I said above, let's discuss this in a new thread. Would you like to create one, or shall I?