St Pancras Problems last night

[MrCub]

So last night I arrived at St Pancras at around 11.20pm to take a Thameslink service to Luton. By this time, they were running all stations services only, every 15 minutes (although I would have thought Saturday night was busy enough to warrant some semi fasts).

Owing to the Thameslink Programmes engineering, services were using the EMT platforms (1-4). However, some fool signaller had managed to stable East Midlands trains in each of the four platforms, and therefore there was nowhere for the Thameslink service....or at least I think that's what happened because there were NO staff to be seen anywhere. No information was given, no announcements made, and no one to manage the situation. It was chaos. People were upset and felt abandoned.

More and more people were arriving to get the train home and after about 40 minutes, there was probably getting on for 800 - 1000 people waiting for trains with no information whatsoever.

After over an hour of confusion, they managed to get a 4 coach FCC train on the end of the platform which shuttled people to Kentish Town for an onward connection. I've no idea why this took so long.

So, I have a few simple questions:
1. What would have happened if they were unable to run this Kentish Town shuttle? Would we have been abandoned there? After all, there were NO staff to help or take control of an increasingly chaotic, and at times, violent situation
2. Who is at fault - the signaller for stabling the train in the wrong platform?
3. Is it normal for train operators to completely abandon major terminus stations late in the evening and hope nothing goes wrong?


Mr Cub.

 

[First class]

I've had a look and there does not appear to be a 23:20 service to Luton from STP.

The 23:18 ran from Platform 1 on time and arrived at Luton on time with no delays throughout the journey. (TRUST).

The 23:32 was cancelled at STP and started from Kentish Town, departing at 23:48. Arrived at Bedford 5 mins late.
Everything then pretty much started/terminated at Kentish town until:

The next train from STP was then the 01:06 service to Bedford which ran on time.

I doubt it will be the signaller's fault as he is given a stabling plan and assuming that was followed, he did his job correctly. More likely some office based clerk having an oversight.

Ultimately, there are help points at the station so you could always be able to contact somebody. The station is staffed 24/7 (maybe not by FCC, but someone who can try and help) I also doubt that no member of staff was present. Either way, if there were say 2 members of staff available, and you yourself say the situation is "violent", you really think they are going to become visible? I suspect lack of information is your complaint, and from experience, the staff will have been told just as much as you! Situations like this change so quickly that any information you get is quickly irrelevant/incorrect. You then change your story constantly with passengers who think your lying etc and get abusive, so maybe sometimes less is more.

Trains were disrupted for 1.5hrs, you weren't left stranded and you got home (albeit) late. You're entitled to a refund, so claim it if you are eligible.

 

[yorkie]

After over an hour of confusion, they managed to get a 4 coach FCC train on the end of the platform which shuttled people to Kentish Town for an onward connection. I've no idea why this took so long. .

Was the Northern Line not running? Or, failing that, the Met to Baker St/Finchley Rd then the Jubilee to West Hampstead. They should have announced these options (assuming these lines were not shut of course!).

 

[Smoggy]

It started when 1D86 was wrongly routed into P3 vice P2, and therefore 1D89 was routed into P1 vice P3. Incoming driver refused to do the shunt moves required to free up P3 for FCC services. Therefore the use of FCC 4-car unit on the shuttle to Kentish Town which was the best plan possible given the circumstances.

 

[Firestarter]

....Owing to the Thameslink Programmes engineering, services were using the EMT platforms (1-4). However, some fool signaller had managed to stable East Midlands trains in each of the four platforms, and therefore there was nowhere for the Thameslink service...

I believe A four car Thameslink train is permitted onto the platform even if a EMT train is on the platform already. Don't quote me on it..

 

[Edvid]

I've seen it happen just the other day, so you're right.

 

[EM2]

Was the Northern Line not running? Or, failing that, the Met to Baker St/Finchley Rd then the Jubilee to West Hampstead. They should have announced these options (assuming these lines were not shut of course!).

Announcements cannot be made at STP after 23:00 except in an emergency (normally under orders from BTP).

I believe A four car Thameslink train is permitted onto the platform even if a EMT train is on the platform already. Don't quote me on it..

Indeed it can, it's happened on several occasions.

I find it hard to believe there were NO staff anywhere. The FCC information desk on the ground floor is normally manned, there are NR staff on duty all the time (although they may have been on other duties in other areas of the station) and there is an EMT dispatcher. Apart from all that, the area is monitored by CCTV and if it was felt necessary, BTP would have been called to assist.

 

[alloneword100]

It started when 1D86 was wrongly routed into P3 vice P2, and therefore 1D89 was routed into P1 vice P3. Incoming driver refused to do the shunt moves required to free up P3 for FCC services. Therefore the use of FCC 4-car unit on the shuttle to Kentish Town which was the best plan possible given the circumstances.

Why would a driver be so unprofessional as to let the whole of a service grind to a halt like that? How long would it have taken?

 

[westcoaster]

All trains at that time are 8car trains, the shuttle train had to be spilt then platformed, driver go back and platform the other 4, then done some shuttles, i was turned around at kentish town on the above listed service which left late, ppl were coming from st.panc on the tube so I agreed to wait till 2355, but the train was so packed I left when there was no more space, apparently a 7 car emt was miss-platformed, thus stopping 8 car trains going into st pancras, and creating the disruption that happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would a driver be so unprofessional as to let the whole of a service grind to a halt like that? How long would it have taken?

Not the drivers fault, if his day is up, then his day is up.

 

[A0]

Not the drivers fault, if his day is up, then his day is up.

Sorry, but that's an absolutely ****-poor attitude.

What would you say if it was an ambulance driver who took that attitude which resulted in the death of a friend / relative? It would be totally unacceptable.

Actions and indeed comments such as the one above are the reason the rail industry and many of its employees get such a lousy press. And frankly, on that basis, you deserve it.

 

[westcoaster]

Sorry, but that's an absolutely ****-poor attitude.

What would you say if it was an ambulance driver who took that attitude which resulted in the death of a friend / relative? It would be totally unacceptable.

Actions and indeed comments such as the one above are the reason the rail industry and many of its employees get such a lousy press. And frankly, on that basis, you deserve it.

No it's not , if I took in a train into a terminal station and the signaller put me into a wrong platform not to my knowledge, and my day is then finished and had 20 mins to get the last train home from another station, how am I going to get home?

What I don't understand is how there was no other driver to shunt the train, all this week emt units have been of to fueling over night, so where was the night men?

 

[TheManWho]

With respect, an ambulance driver is a very different to a train driver- nobody died because the train driver refused to shunt the train out of St P. and back in again.

There could be a whole host of reasons as to why the driver wasn't willing to shunt the train, including:
- he/she may have run out of legal hours (12 hour rules etc)
- he/she may have just wanted to get home
- he/she may have been catching a train out of St P to get to the depot and/or home

Frankly, there's many professions where people will think "no, I don't want to do that, I want to go home, and I'm going home- in an office you may "refuse" to do an important report because it's 5pm and you want to get home, and McDonalds won't serve you a Big Mac after closing time....

Sorry, but that's an absolutely ****-poor attitude.

What would you say if it was an ambulance driver who took that attitude which resulted in the death of a friend / relative? It would be totally unacceptable.

Actions and indeed comments such as the one above are the reason the rail industry and many of its employees get such a lousy press. And frankly, on that basis, you deserve it.

 

[Flying Snail]

Sorry, but that's an absolutely ****-poor attitude.

What would you say if it was an ambulance driver who took that attitude which resulted in the death of a friend / relative? It would be totally unacceptable.

Actions and indeed comments such as the one above are the reason the rail industry and many of its employees get such a lousy press. And frankly, on that basis, you deserve it.

I must have missed the part of the OP where people were mortally wounded and waiting on a commuter train to take them to Luton Airport Parkway for emergency medical treatment.

The fact is railway driver's hours are regulated and exceeding them would be a serious disciplinary matter.

Even if he had enough spare driving time to complete the task you do not know his personal situation, he may have had any number of reasons for refusing the overtime.

I have been put in a similar position numerous times; can you do this that or the other as we are stuck and such and such service won't run. Sometimes the answer is yes sometimes it is no. I sympathise with passengers who may be inconvenienced but I am not the cause of whatever the problem may have been and it is not my responsibility to drop any personal business I may have at zero notice to resolve the situation.

 

[Fincra5]

There is no obligation for a Driver to do overtime to do a Shunt. Unless it is in his/her diagram, or the Driver in cover/spare, then there is no reason for the driver to have to accept the overtime to do the shunt.

You don't know how long the shift could have been and the driver just wanted to get home. Who knows.

 

[TomJ93]

Why no announcements at StP?

 

[westcoaster]

Why no announcements at StP?

There must have been as i waited for people of the tube.

 

[MCR247]

Why no announcements at StP?

Local residents?

 

[NightatLaira]

There could be a whole host of reasons as to why the driver wasn't willing to shunt the train, including:
- he/she may have run out of legal hours (12 hour rules etc)
- he/she may have just wanted to get home
- he/she may have been catching a train out of St P to get to the depot and/or home

So, just out of interest. If the driver had done (the right thing in my book) and stayed on an extra 5mins (or whatever) and shunted the train out of the station to allow other services to proceed as normal, would he have received a disciplinary?? :-x What is this country coming to?! He should be being made employee of the month for going the extra mile! The 12 hour legal working limit was designed to protect workers from exploitation - a one-off is not exploitation.

in an office you may "refuse" to do an important report because it's 5pm and you want to get home, and McDonalds won't serve you a Big Mac after closing time....

Not in my office, you'd get the sack!

 

[EM2]

The 12 hour legal working limit was designed to protect workers from exploitation - a one-off is not exploitation.

Maybe he was due back in twelve hours later? Any overtime would mean that he could not book in until twleve hours have elapsed after he'd booked off. That means that the early part of his diagram the next day would not be covered and could mean even more disruption then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why no announcements at StP?

Local residents?

Correct. Quite apart from the residents in the apartments and the hotel, the residents of the flats on Midland Road were given assurances that announcements would not be made between 23:00 and 07:00, except in the Thameslink Box, where they can't be heard outside.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The 12 hour legal working limit was designed to protect workers from exploitation - a one-off is not exploitation.

No, the 12 hour limit is as a result of the Hidden report, where it made a recommendation that a worker could not carry out more than 12 hours safety critical work at a time, and must have a 12 hour break between shifts for rest.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry but how do we know the driver refused the shunt? Was he actually asked? Drivers often have. An agreement that 30mins overtime can't be refused but depends if they were late in etc and as people had said, what his going home plans were. Think before commenting on an individual people must really wait for the facts, not just speculation.

 

[MadCommuter]

If anything, this highlights the inflexibility of StP Domestic. Four platforms for a mainline terminus is pretty poor.

 

[EM2]

If anything, this highlights the inflexibility of StP Domestic. Four platforms for a mainline terminus is pretty poor.

Fenchurch Street manages pretty well.

 

[DarloRich]

So, just out of interest. If the driver had done (the right thing in my book) and stayed on an extra 5mins (or whatever) and shunted the train out of the station to allow other services to proceed as normal, would he have received a disciplinary?? :-x What is this country coming to?! He should be being made employee of the month for going the extra mile! The 12 hour legal working limit was designed to protect workers from exploitation - a one-off is not exploitation. QUOTE]


Is it not like a TACO (forgive me if that isn’t the right acronym!) on an HGV? Once you reach your hours limit you have to stop for an enforced rest break.

Perhaps the driver was " out of hours"

 

[Flywaver]

On XC we have to do an hours overtime to see our diagram out. But most of our jobs are 9 hours plus and with 10 hours max driving hours it cannot happen unless working back to home depot. The way our roster works with committed Sundays in we quite often get 12 hours rest turn around. A lot of Drivers like to use AL days on the long jobs when we are at that part of the roster.
The downside though is if your spare you quite often get the worst diagram....

 

[Aictos]

Fenchurch Street manages pretty well.

Fenchurch St deals with just over 15 million passengers, St Pancras deals with just over 18 million therefore I don't think it was wise to only have 4 platforms for East Midlands to share at times with FCC - 6 platforms would be the minimum needed, as well as having the FCC platforms done as two island platforms allowing services to pass others there.

 

[EM2]

Fenchurch St deals with just over 15 million passengers, St Pancras deals with just over 18 million therefore I don't think it was wise to only have 4 platforms for East Midlands to share at times with FCC - 6 platforms would be the minimum needed, as well as having the FCC platforms done as two island platforms allowing services to pass others there.

Except those 18 million are spread across three TOCs (EMT, FCC and SET) on three sets of platforms, and the four platforms in question work perfectly well 99% of the time. This issue is purely down to an error, FCC have been using one of the EMT platforms overnight pretty much constantly for two years or so, and this is the first time there's been a problem like this.

 

[MadCommuter]

Fenchurch St deals with just over 15 million passengers, St Pancras deals with just over 18 million therefore I don't think it was wise to only have 4 platforms for East Midlands to share at times with FCC - 6 platforms would be the minimum needed, as well as having the FCC platforms done as two island platforms allowing services to pass others there.

I'm prepared to be corrected on this, but turn-around times at StP must be longer too, given they are intercity trains; seat reservations, catering, etc.

 

[talltim]

Are the platforms different lengths? If not then surely it wouldn't matter which trainw as in which platform?

 

[asylumxl]

I'm prepared to be corrected on this, but turn-around times at StP must be longer too, given they are intercity trains; seat reservations, catering, etc.

I seem to recall 15 to 20 minutes for a 222 and upto 30 for an HST set.