St Pancras Problems last night

[EM2]

Are the platforms different lengths? If not then surely it wouldn't matter which trainw as in which platform?

The platforms are all the same length and will take an 8-car HST. However, if there's already a train in there, whether 4-car, 5-car or 7-car, you ain't gonna fit an 8-car FCC in as well!
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I'm prepared to be corrected on this, but turn-around times at StP must be longer too, given they are intercity trains; seat reservations, catering, etc.

Exactly. It is therefore perfectly suited to its normal role. It's when you get an extra four services an hour in there, with short turnarounds that you may have a problem.
As I say, normally it works fine. You can blame the signallers or the operations department, but it's not the fault of the designers/architects.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... but it's not the fault of the designers/architects.

Is there any reason when there's a cross-London blockade on, why FCC services can't use the Thameslink platforms (A+B), and turnback from there?

 

[EM2]

Is there any reason when there's a cross-London blockade on, why FCC services can't use the Thameslink platforms, and turnback from there?

It is done sometimes but it's dependent on exactly what work is being done.

 

[alloneword100]

Frankly, there's many professions where people will think "no, I don't want to do that, I want to go home, and I'm going home- in an office you may "refuse" to do an important report because it's 5pm and you want to get home, and McDonalds won't serve you a Big Mac after closing time....

What sort of offices have you worked in, where you can blithely refuse to work a bit late in order to finish off an important report which needs to go off that day to meet the deadline for a big tender, for example? Because that is the appropriate comparison. Hamburger flippers, perhaps - although even they would be advised to put in the extra effort if they want promotion - but train drivers are paid more than hamburger flippers because, supposedly, they take responsibility.
Having read this forum for a few months, I had begun to revise my views a little about railway staff. There are clearly some very committed and knowledgeable people posting here who are a credit to their companies. However, the number of people who seem to think that it is perfectly OK for a driver to leave a thousand people stranded for an hour and a half at midnight on a Saturday just because he has reached the end of his shift makes me think I was right all along, and that most railway staff don't have the faintest idea what the expectations are of employees outside their own protected industry bubble.
The one argument that makes sense is that the driver may have reached the end of his statutory hours, and that he could be disciplined if he continued. If that was the only excuse that most posters here thought was acceptable, I'd have no beef. The fact that so many of you sound as if you would do exactly the same makes me fume.

 

[Smoggy]

Is there any reason when there's a cross-London blockade on, why FCC services can't use the Thameslink platforms (A+B), and turnback from there?

At the weekend, the blockade included Kentish Town Junction to St Pancras Low Level as the newly installed crossovers at St Pancras were being wired which also involved a test train as part of the testing and commissioning.

OLE Section Insulators have been installed at the south end of St Pancras and when the crossovers are in full use, then trains will be able to easily terminate at St Pancras LL, whilst allowing south of St Pan towards Farringdon to be electrically isolated and under possession.

Upto now, in order to isolate Farringdon for the works happening down there, the full electrical section to Kentish Town has to be isolated preventing use of St Pancras LL.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Upto now, in order to isolate Farringdon for the works happening down there, the full electrical section to Kentish Town has to be isolated preventing use of St Pancras LL.

Smoggy. Thanks for the explanation.

So maybe that is the fault of the designers/architects?! :roll:

 

[EM2]

Smoggy. Thanks for the explanation.

So maybe that is the fault of the designers/architects?! :roll:

That may well be. But as I have already said, platforms 1-4 (which is where this problem was) have functioned perfectly well for the last two years with FCC using them almost every night and weekend.
It is not the architect's fault if signallers can't set their routes properly.

 

[MCR247]

I seem to recall 15 to 20 minutes for a 222 and upto 30 for an HST set.

HSTs have a 60+ minute turnaround in StP

arrives at xx13 (xx28 off Nottingham)
departs at xx15 for Nottingham

 

[Firestarter]

Slightly off topic but I'm sure EMT/future successor may want to increase services in the future, will 4 platforms still be enough then?

 

[A0]

Is it not like a TACO (forgive me if that isn’t the right acronym!) on an HGV? Once you reach your hours limit you have to stop for an enforced rest break.

Perhaps the driver was " out of hours"

But even within the 'hours' rules on a Tacho there is flexibility. If an HGV driver is stranded on a motorway owing to closure because of an RTA, he doesn't just abandon the vehicle or park on the hard shoulder. Instead he will drive to the next sensible place to park - which is exactly what the authorities would encourage.

The problem I have is with people taking the attitude that it's alright to just walk away late on a Saturday night, potentially leaving people stranded.

OK - the driver didn't make the mistake, that presumably was that of the signaller, but to take an 'I don't care' attitude in what is a service industry is frankly unacceptable.

If, as they like to claim, drivers are professional people, then behave professionally and look after your customers.
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Slightly off topic but I'm sure EMT/future successor may want to increase services in the future, will 4 platforms still be enough then?

Probably depends what happens to Corby services in the future.

If the MML were electrified to Corby, then I could foresee Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough losing their EMT services and having FCC ones which would go via Thameslink rather than into the EMT station.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoggy
Upto now, in order to isolate Farringdon for the works happening down there, the full electrical section to Kentish Town has to be isolated preventing use of St Pancras LL.

Smoggy. Thanks for the explanation.

So maybe that is the fault of the designers/architects?! :roll:

I suspect this may date back to when it was originally electrified?

Also, you'd need some form of power beyond StP to turn the trains round, unless you ran into / out of the "wrong" platform.

 

[MCR247]

Slightly off topic but I'm sure EMT/future successor may want to increase services in the future, will 4 platforms still be enough then?

If they manage to get rid of HSTs, and have a VHF style turnaround for 222s then I'm sure they could. Although I'm unsure where these new services could go to? The MML is pretty empty, although a few extra carriages on the 4/5 cars wouldn't go amiss..

 

[EM2]

If, as they like to claim, drivers are professional people, then behave professionally and look after your customers.

As has already been discussed, the driver may have had NO CHOICE. I'm not a driver, but if I finish at 7pm, I am not permitted due to book on again before 7am
If the driver is in the same boat, and instead of booking off at 23:30, he books off at 01:30, he is not allowed to book on again for twelve hours. So who covers his diagram for those two hours the next day?
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Also, you'd need some form of power beyond StP to turn the trains round, unless you ran into / out of the "wrong" platform.

There is no "wrong" platform as both lines a re bi-directionally signalled.

 

[A0]

Smoggy. Thanks for the explanation.

So maybe that is the fault of the designers/architects?! :roll:

As has already been discussed, the driver may have had NO CHOICE. I'm not a driver, but if I finish at 7pm, I am not permitted due to book on again before 7am
If the driver is in the same boat, and instead of booking off at 23:30, he books off at 01:30, he is not allowed to book on again for twelve hours. So who covers his diagram for those two hours the next day?
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There is no "wrong" platform as both lines a re bi-directionally signalled.

How long would it have taken to run the train out of St P to the nearest set of points, walk to the other end of the train, then park it in the correct platform?

Given that FCC managed to split a set at Kentish Town and run a shuttle, I suspect not very long. So any impact on the "12 hour rule" would have been minimal.

 

[Minilad]

A lot of people seem to be making a lot of assumptions about things here without knowing the full facts. And using those assumptions to reinforce some prejudices

 

[A-driver]

I agree with XCDriver-as I said earlier people are just speculating that the driver refused to shunt around. A company could force the driver to do it so can't see that he just refused. I see it as more likely that the last train came in, driver keyed off and went home and a little while later-when all drivers had booked off-control or the signal box or whoever realised the mistake by which time it was too late to get any of the trains moved.

But I know no more than anyone else on here and don't believe it is right to speculate on things like this-especially when some of you are actually launching a very Nasty and personal attack on an individual you do not know-and for all you know may read these threads.

Please start waiting for facts before posting such mis informed rubbish on here. If the driver was in the wrongbthen he will be dealt with appropriately but let's get some facts before jumping to conclusions.

 

[EM2]

How long would it have taken to run the train out of St P to the nearest set of points, walk to the other end of the train, then park it in the correct platform?

Given that FCC managed to split a set at Kentish Town and run a shuttle, I suspect not very long. So any impact on the "12 hour rule" would have been minimal.

It was an 8-car set. There was only capacity for a 4-car set. It had to be split. That's why it had to be taken up to Kentish Town.
It was split there, one set ran to Bedford, the other returned to STP

 

[TheManWho]

It may have been the right thing to shunt the train out, and back into St P, however, there are reasons as to why the driver may not have been willing or able to, which I listed in my previous post. Personally speaking, I've stayed behind to do an extra hour or twos work when required, but normally I don't plan much after my shift and the couple of hours overtime always comes in handy, however, I would never go over 12 hours, or have less than 12 hours rest between shifts.

I would never suggest that said employee would be "disciplined" if he/she agreed to shunt the train out of St P then back in again- indeed with any "operational" rail job (inclduing my position at the rail operator I work for), you do need a certain degree of flexibility, as point problems, power problems, signalling problems etc can occur at any time (and normally on my last trip when I've planned to do something after work!) Where I work, the majority of the train staff will go above and beyond the call of duty when the chips are down.

However, at the rail company I work for, any employee who goes over the 12hour work limit (either shift or between shifts) can be subject to disciplinary procedures as his/her hours are his/her responsibility.

I've been in the position where I've had to remove a train from service and/or refuse to take the train any further due to no relief and I simply cannot take the train further- it's not a nice position to be in, but sometimes needs must and whilst it's unfortunate, it is sometimes unavoidable.

As for getting the sack in your office for not printing a report after 5pm- thank goodness I don't work in that office!

So, just out of interest. If the driver had done (the right thing in my book) and stayed on an extra 5mins (or whatever) and shunted the train out of the station to allow other services to proceed as normal, would he have received a disciplinary?? :-x What is this country coming to?! He should be being made employee of the month for going the extra mile! The 12 hour legal working limit was designed to protect workers from exploitation - a one-off is not exploitation.



Not in my office, you'd get the sack!

 

[OxtedL]

Many offices (in the private sector) take overtime as a given. 40 hours is just what it says on your contract, it is understood you will do as much as necessary.

Refusing to stay beyond 5 on a regular basis looks bad, and an employer will find a way to get rid of you pretty quickly in most offices.

Very different to the railway.

 

[TheManWho]

As I pointed out in my post just now, the vast majority of rail workers (in my view) would go above and beyond the call of duty when things aren't going "particularly well." Personally speaking, I've worked several hours beyond my finish time to ensure the travelling public can get to where they need to get to, as do a vast number of operational rail staff with little or no however, there has to be sometime when one has to say "I simply can't stay on." I tried telling my partner one year that I'd be late on our anniversary because nobody was available to take over my train, which didn't go down particularly well.

Re your comment about offices, I worked in one office before I joined the railways, and hated ever single minute of it- it doesn't matter what industry or occupation you compare it to, office work or "burger flippers" the case remains that we all have lives outside of our work, and sometimes that means we cannot do the "extra" that is expected of us. True, I may not know what is expected of someone writing a big tender that due for submission the next day (in my view the tender should have already been completed by then) but that's a choice that I have made- and perhaps those who are not operational railway employees should also consider the points I have mentioned previously

What sort of offices have you worked in, where you can blithely refuse to work a bit late in order to finish off an important report which needs to go off that day to meet the deadline for a big tender, for example? Because that is the appropriate comparison. Hamburger flippers, perhaps - although even they would be advised to put in the extra effort if they want promotion - but train drivers are paid more than hamburger flippers because, supposedly, they take responsibility.
Having read this forum for a few months, I had begun to revise my views a little about railway staff. There are clearly some very committed and knowledgeable people posting here who are a credit to their companies. However, the number of people who seem to think that it is perfectly OK for a driver to leave a thousand people stranded for an hour and a half at midnight on a Saturday just because he has reached the end of his shift makes me think I was right all along, and that most railway staff don't have the faintest idea what the expectations are of employees outside their own protected industry bubble.
The one argument that makes sense is that the driver may have reached the end of his statutory hours, and that he could be disciplined if he continued. If that was the only excuse that most posters here thought was acceptable, I'd have no beef. The fact that so many of you sound as if you would do exactly the same makes me fume.

 

[moggie]

For a driver (or any other rail worker carrying out safety critical work) to exceed 12 hours is contrary to safety critical working regulations following the Hidden Enquiry after Clapham. There are provisions to extend to over 12 hours but this requires a senior manager to document the reason and authorise the extension so that an audit trail exists to prevent cases of poor practice and to ensure the affected member of staff is actually fit to carry out the extended period of duty taking into account the next planned turn. The staff member has no freedom in the matter and if they do exceed their 12 hours or compromise their 12 minimum rest between turns without authority then yes - a disciplinary could result.

Rules is rules and they are designed to protect the individual and the travelling public.