St Pancras expansion

[dorsetdesiro]

It has been reported Eurostar & DfT are looking to increase capacity at STP - is there really enough space what with the domestic platforms & retail outlets there as well? Also the possibility of international operators coming to compete with Eurostar?

Any no frill Lumo-like international operators probably could run from Stratford instead.

Would the domestic services (EMR & SE HS1) need relocating to other terminus or move the platforms underground?

 

[BerkshireRails]

The issue with Stratford International is that only domestic services can terminate there because of the track layout.

 

[JonathanH]

It has been reported Eurostar & DfT are looking to increase capacity at STP - is there really enough space what with the domestic platforms & retail outlets there as well?

Is this just capacity for passengers to wait for trains, rather than physical capacity for more trains?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Is this just capacity for passengers to wait for trains, rather than physical capacity for more trains?

The plan is to increase capacity from 1,800 passengers to 5,000 at St Pancras.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is this just capacity for passengers to wait for trains, rather than physical capacity for more trains?

The issues are around passenger capacity, not track or platform capacity, at least for international trains.

Some improvements and expansion have already happened, and more should be coming, both for Eurostar expansion and any competitors that may start.

The plan is to increase capacity from 1,800 passengers to 5,000 at St Pancras.

Is there any public detail on how they plan to achieve this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

It has been reported Eurostar & DfT are looking to increase capacity at STP - is there really enough space what with the domestic platforms & retail outlets there as well? Also the possibility of international operators coming to compete with Eurostar?

I would imagine some of the shops would go. There are multiple potential competitors, with rather different likelihoods of them actually starting! Some are certainly plausible, I guess we'll have to see if they make it.

Any no frill Lumo-like international operators probably could run from Stratford instead.

This is unlikely to actually be any cheaper to operate, so not super likely.

Would the domestic services (EMR & SE HS1) need relocating to other terminus or move the platforms underground?

No, as the platforms are not limiting, there wouldn't be any need to move the other existing platforms for the international services.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Is there any public detail on how they plan to achieve this?

The planned works are currently being tendered out. All we know is the Specs it is being redesigned to.

 

[bananas]

There was some discussion about this in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/proposed-new-channel-tunnel-services-discussion.276246/

 

[Jimini]

Earlier boarding (30+ mins) seems to be the general idea based on what I’ve read, thus freeing up space in the departure area.

 

[frankmoh]

Last night I decided to check the price of a last minute ticket from London to Paris. Eurostar was £242 and a Ryanair flight was £70 and half the time. Yeah.....

 

[Trainbike46]

Last night I decided to check the price of a last minute ticket from London to Paris. Eurostar was £242 and a Ryanair flight was £70 and half the time. Yeah.....

snap.eurostar.com is helpful for some people for last-minute eurostar tickets, and often beats the ryanair price you quote.

Earlier boarding (30+ mins) seems to be the general idea based on what I’ve read, thus freeing up space in the departure area.

Another option would be having passengers arrive later.

With a capacity of 5000 pax/hour, 900 passengers would be through in 11 minutes. Therefore, it is entirely feasible to close the gates 20 or even 15 minutes before departure (instead of the current 30), and if you open the gates ~30 minutes before that, you would limit the amount of people hanging around in the departure lounge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2025 ==

though commercially less attractive if the costs for the tunnel and LGVs are per-path rather than per-passenger.

(replying here as not directly relevant to the thread this is from)

Channel tunnel access charges are a combination of a per-path charge and a per-passenger charge.

 

[danshrimp]

Another option would be having passengers arrive later.

With a capacity of 5000 pax/hour, 900 passengers would be through in 11 minutes. Therefore, it is entirely feasible to close the gates 20 or even 15 minutes before departure (instead of the current 30), and if you open the gates ~30 minutes before that, you would limit the amount of people hanging around in the departure lounge.

The suggestion seems to be that they're doing both:

Simon Lejeune, chief safety and station officer at Eurostar, said: “We are reducing check-in times. As a result, passengers can arrive a little bit later.

“We have started boarding our trains a little earlier as well. That gives a good sense of flow to the customer. It’s becoming a seamless, smooth experience.

“We have started boarding 30 minutes before departure time. Passengers appreciate boarding a little earlier.”

St Pancras: Eurostar lets passengers board trains early in bid to avoid overcrowding

Three-stage plan to increase capacity at station as demand for international rail travel is predicted to treble

www.standard.co.uk

(This discussion now seems to be going on across at least three threads!)

 

[simonw]

Last night I decided to check the price of a last minute ticket from London to Paris. Eurostar was £242 and a Ryanair flight was £70 and half the time. Yeah.....

City centre to city centre it isn't half the time. I

You pays your money and you choose which suits.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Is there demand to make London to Paris half hourly?

 

[frankmoh]

City centre to city centre it isn't half the time. I

You pays your money and you choose which suits.

I will admit neither airport was in the city centre.

 

[Bald Rick]

Eurostar was £242 and a Ryanair flight was £70 and half the time. Yeah.....

Door to door time? Comfort? Ability to work or sleep?

There’s several reasons why passengers are willing to pay substantially more for London to Paris by train than by plane, and it remains very popular.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I will admit neither airport was in the city centre.

But almost certainly neither was your house in the city centre of London!

(I can get someone to drive me from my front door to the Luton Airport terminal in about 15 minutes, but it takes nearly an hour to get to St Pancras on the train, plus time to travel to the station, buy a ticket, then wait for the next train. Timings wise probably not much in it with airport>city centre transport the other end plus airport security, but cost wise makes a massive difference.)

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Fair enough about exorbitant Eurostar pricing - obviously the monopoly - whenever the DfT/other European governments finally will break their dominance thus giving other operators access to the Channel Tunnel market - then Eurostar prices should come down when faced with real competition.

There's talk of operators like Virgin, Ouigo etc but Deutsche Bahn went cold on the idea some years ago, maybe time will tell when Eurostar ever does introduce more new destinations, after launching the Amsterdam route a long while ago, potentially attracting other international operators to St Pancras?

 

[Zomboid]

Fair enough about exorbitant Eurostar pricing - obviously the monopoly

They might have a monopoly on rail travel across the channel, but as we've established they're competing with air as well.

If people are willing to pay Eurostar prices to get what Eurostar are offering then that's just market economics.

 

[Bald Rick]

They might have a monopoly on rail travel across the channel, but as we've established they're competing with air as well.

If people are willing to pay Eurostar prices to get what Eurostar are offering then that's just market economics.

Exactly. There is no doubt that, on average, people prefer the train over the plane from London to Paris and are prepared to pay more to use it. Same with London to Edinburgh.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Is there demand to make London to Paris half hourly?

There is enough demand, however can you find enough units, enough paths and enough station capacity to do that?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There is enough demand, however can you find enough units, enough paths and enough station capacity to do that?

Now those are fun questions.

I’m presuming the ticket prices will come down with a half hourly service.

HS1 would have enough paths wouldn’t it?

 

[zwk500]

Now those are fun questions.

I’m presuming the ticket prices will come down with a half hourly service.

HS1 would have enough paths wouldn’t it?

HS1 and the tunnel probably do, but LGV Nord is another matter.

 

[Bald Rick]

HS1 and the tunnel probably do, but LGV Nord is another matter.

LGV Nord has loads of spare capacity.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is enough demand, however can you find enough units, enough paths and enough station capacity to do that?

There is the guaranteed 4 paths throught the tunnel, and the corresponding paths on HS1. I think they're available on LGV Nord as well. Departures at .01 .04 .31 .34 from St Pancras. there's also the .16 departure in some hours.

So it's entirely feasible to have a half-hourly service to Paris, and an hourly to Brussels (and beyond), and have a spare path every hour on top.

At some times of the day, it's already pretty close to half-hourly, though I'm not sure how many extra services would be possible with the current fleet.

Station capacity is likely the main limitation currently. The main gaps in the half-hourly patterns are when the Brussels services go, and while there are some times with trains less than 25 minutes apart, they are early morning, when trains are probably not fully selling out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

They might have a monopoly on rail travel across the channel, but as we've established they're competing with air as well.

If people are willing to pay Eurostar prices to get what Eurostar are offering then that's just market economics.

eurostar does have cheap tickets as well. The low fare finder on their website is really helpful for finding them. For last-minute travel, there is Eurostar Snap.

 

[zwk500]

LGV Nord has loads of spare capacity.

That's not what the French have been saying!

 

[yoyothehobo]

I will admit neither airport was in the city centre.

Lets be honest, if its Ryanair and a flight to Beauvais, the airport isnt even anywhere near Paris!

 

[Western Lord]

Door to door time? Comfort? Ability to work or sleep?

There’s several reasons why passengers are willing to pay substantially more for London to Paris by train than by plane, and it remains very popular.

It very much depends on where your door is. I can be at Stansted in twenty minutes, it would take me about an hour and a half to get to St. Pancras!

 

[Senex]

Door to door time? Comfort? Ability to work or sleep?

There’s several reasons why passengers are willing to pay substantially more for London to Paris by train than by plane, and it remains very popular.

But how much more popular might it be if the journey-experience were like Paris-Brussels or Brussels-Cologne rather than like any journey by air with all its hassle. If only London-Paris were as easy as London-Manchester or London-Newcastle, then a half-hourly service might by now have become well justified and well patronised.

 

[BerkshireRails]

There is the guaranteed 4 paths throught the tunnel, and the corresponding paths on HS1. I think they're available on LGV Nord as well. Departures at .01 .04 .31 .34 from St Pancras. there's also the .16 departure in some hours.

So it's entirely feasible to have a half-hourly service to Paris, and an hourly to Brussels (and beyond), and have a spare path every hour on top.

At some times of the day, it's already pretty close to half-hourly, though I'm not sure how many extra services would be possible with the current fleet.

Station capacity is likely the main limitation currently. The main gaps in the half-hourly patterns are when the Brussels services go, and while there are some times with trains less than 25 minutes apart, they are early morning, when trains are probably not fully selling out.

It will probably be more realistic once the 51 strong new Eurostar fleet enter service to replace the Thayls units and 373s. That spare path could be used for a Swiss land service they are talking about adding.

 

[zwk500]

But how much more popular might it be if the journey-experience were like Paris-Brussels or Brussels-Cologne rather than like any journey by air with all its hassle. If only London-Paris were as easy as London-Manchester or London-Newcastle, then a half-hourly service might by now have become well justified and well patronised.

That requires political change, not railway change. The Security and Border arrangements are legally mandated. I can't see the UK Home office agreeing to loosen checks on the cross-channel border anytime soon.