Designer sought for St Pancras International growth plans

[Austriantrain]

Unless you add extra entire services, opening Stratford or even Ashford just means you increase your costs without adding any extra seats to make up for it. If you could increase yield from those two points you could make up for it but that’s unlikely.

Of course, but not as long as St Pancras is capacity-limited (obviously, Ashford could never be a substitute for a London station).

 

[nwales58]

I have never understood why Stratford could not be used as a second London station, spreading the load. [snip] can someone enlighten me?

Its current, designed, configuration does not allow reversing international, or any 400m, trains. If you zoom in on OSM you will see the problem. Changing that would involve rebuilding the tunnels at one end or the other. Any space for building a serious-sized passenger terminal has now been used for blocks of flats and car parks (remember this is Britain, commercial revenue from these sites is sacrosanct).

Spreading the load with two stops on existing services means extra cost for a small uncertain capacity increase. Again, this is Britain, compressing passengers costs nothing (and if it makes some of them go away even better, no need to increase capacity). Making the experience more pleasant can only happen if increased revenue more than pays the interest bill on construction costs.

Edit (for those who weren't around 30 years ago): Stratford International was designed for use as a stop on the North of London services. I can't remember and don't have time to dig, it probably was designed for a very small passenger flow in the days when our border processing was much much more superficial therefore far less space was needed than nowadays.

 

[mad_rich]

The solution at Stratford is to move Southeastern services to the current unused platforms 1&4, and use P2&3 as terminating platforms for a Channel Tunnel operator. You'd be limited to 200m trains, but you could then access the crossover to the east of the station.

This is not without significant investment. Fitting out the unused platforms. Fitting out (and probably extending/ rebuilding) the departures area, which was never envisaged to handle a full train-load of passengers, and indeed which I don't think was ever fitted out. Accepting the point @nwales58 makes about space, could you extend upwards?

Difficult and expensive, but then so is bringing St Pancras up to comfortably handle 5000 passengers per hour.

As I understand it, 200m trains are no longer forbidden in the tunnel.

 

[nwales58]

As I understand it, 200m trains are no longer forbidden in the tunnel.

though commercially less attractive if the costs for the tunnel and LGVs are per-path rather than per-passenger.

 

[Citybreak1]

This seems to be rumbling on years when are we actually going to see expansion and renovation works?

 

[BottleTheWater]

I think Ebbsfleet might be more suitable for a second high speed operator because of its possibility as a interchange for long distance coach services and also a park-and-ride for car users. They could sell a joint connecting ticket on the South Eastern HSR for those wanting to travel to London St Pancras or a connection at Northfleet Railway Station to London Charing Cross.

 

[danshrimp]

This seems to be rumbling on years when are we actually going to see expansion and renovation works?

By 2028, per the announcement last week:

Current operational capacity at St Pancras stands at 1,800 passengers per hour but has already risen to 2,000 following recent adjustments.

The review recommended a comprehensive redesign of St Pancras’s international zone, prompting the engagement of architecture firm Hawkins\Brown, known for its work on Stratford International station, to lead a detailed design and feasibility study.

The project will be rolled out in three phases. The first phase, planned for completion within the next three to four years, focuses on short-term improvements within the existing station footprint. These include optimising security and border control processes to increase capacity by around 2,700 passengers per hour.

Phase two envisages a more extensive remodelling of the international area and its integration with the main concourse. Scheduled to be completed by 2028, this phase aims to nearly double current capacity, increasing throughput to approximately 5,000 travellers per hour. The final phase, anticipated in the 2030s, will explore long-term solutions such as relocating arrivals to an upper floor to further streamline passenger flows and support future growth.

 

[mad_rich]

Interesting article in the Times today about the expansion, plus some EES information.

https://archive.is/FomS6

One tidbit is that Eurostar is planning to reduce the recommended arrival time to 60 minutes, down from 75 or 90. I think that'll definitely help (fewer people in the terminal at any one time has got to be a plus).

Also I didn't realise that the eventual capacity target for St Pancras International - 5000 passengers per hour - is equivalent to half a Heathrow Airport.

Section from the article reproduced below:

Eurostar wants to launch new London routes. Can it make them work?

Take an exclusive look behind the scenes at St Pancras with our expert as the cross-Channel operator embarks on an ambitious expansion plan

Almost 31 years ago, in 1994, the very first Eurostar train pulled out from the soaring arches of London Waterloo. Destination: Paris, Brussels and Lille.

Back then, international train travel looked a bit different (for starters, it’s not the same station — Eurostar moved to St Pancras International in 2007). In its first year of operation Eurostar carried three million people. Last year 19.5 million of us sat on one of the company’s elegant blue-and-yellow Siemens trains, with most journeys either starting or ending at the north London hub. By 2040 the cross-Channel operator is aiming to carry 25 million passengers, which translates as 2,700 an hour (up from 2,000 an hour now). The eventual goal is 5,000 passengers an hour. For context, London Heathrow, Europe’s busiest airport, handles less than double that right now.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm very surprised that they're not going ahead with relocating arrivals already. This would free up the entire undercroft for departing passengers, and provide a very sensible place for arriving passengers to exit. There's plenty of space to funnel passengers upstairs through customs controls, rather than pushing them downstairs.

 

[Taunton]

One tidbit is that Eurostar is planning to reduce the recommended arrival time to 60 minutes, down from 75 or 90. I think that'll definitely help (fewer people in the terminal at any one time has got to be a plus).

If only Eurostar would reduce this again to 30 minutes, by which time the train would already be open, it would help even more. The large numbers getting in each other's way are not actually doing anything, they are just waiting.

We found Ebbsfleet far more convenient than St Pancras when it was open, even starting from home at Canary Wharf and driving and parking there we could actually leave an hour later, and get home an hour earlier. Speaking to others on the platform they had come from places like Cambridge. Its problem was it was thinly patronised, and in fact for much of the time deserted. It was also grossly overstaffed for security and border control, which must have had an impact on its costs. I did wonder if the entire Eurostar fare revenue from there was just taken up by the station costs. An amusement was just about every time we alighted on the return trip we had to correct others, generally from overseas, who were also getting down the steps because they thought they were in London. There was presumably a procedure for any who made it up as far as the station building.

The real St Pancras issue is that three different services have been stuffed into the space formerly taken by one. In fact four, because the recent provision out to Luton airport, which in any sane world ought to be Thameslink, is entirely marketed by a different operator on trains running to Corby, four times the distance. The crush at the MML entrance may be part of the remit here, or they may only be looking at Eurostar, whose own passengers spill out into the shopping centre and disrupt things there, and nobody knows which queue is for what.

 

[Citybreak1]

I wonder how the arrivals will look if they go out on top level? Could be very busy around the restaurants on top floor. That article in times also mentioned double decker trains which I find surprising.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

I'm very surprised that they're not going ahead with relocating arrivals already. This would free up the entire undercroft for departing passengers, and provide a very sensible place for arriving passengers to exit. There's plenty of space to funnel passengers upstairs through customs controls, rather than pushing them downstairs.

By 2028 it says but next year is 2026 and if they plan renovations surely it has to start soon to be ready for 2028?

 

[sh24]

I wonder how the arrivals will look if they go out on top level? Could be very busy around the restaurants on top floor. That article in times also mentioned double decker trains which I find surprising.

There is plenty of space up there TBH. A lot of the space around the Betjeman statue and by Carluccios is massively underutilised.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wonder how the arrivals will look if they go out on top level? Could be very busy around the restaurants on top floor. That article in times also mentioned double decker trains which I find surprising.

Probably the most sensible approach would be to funnel people towards the front of the platforms, then use this area to funnel people through customs, either inside the station building or just next to the lift. There's no need for an enormous area, you can have desks at the end of the platform for police/secondary immigration controls if needs be. As far as I know, those 'landside' doors aren't even in use, so there's no reason not to set up an arrival customs corridor there.

By 2028 it says but next year is 2026 and if they plan renovations surely it has to start soon to be ready for 2028?

It might not need that much work, just a few desks, partitions and removal of part of the glass wall.

 

[Trainbike46]

I wonder how the arrivals will look if they go out on top level? Could be very busy around the restaurants on top floor. That article in times also mentioned double decker trains which I find surprising.

Why surprising? Both the tunnel and HS1 have a sufficiently large loading gauge for double deck trains (e.g. TGV Duplex), and Eurostar and at least one of the new entrants have hinted at getting the newest generation of the TGV duplex as their new rolling stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

The real St Pancras issue is that three different services have been stuffed into the space formerly taken by one. In fact four, because the recent provision out to Luton airport, which in any sane world ought to be Thameslink, is entirely marketed by a different operator on trains running to Corby, four times the distance.

Come on - the station was more thsn trebled in size in the rebuild, and that‘s not allowing for the Thameslink platforms downstairs (which replaced KX Thameslink).

And Corby (79 miles) is rather less than three times the distance from St Pancras than Luton Airport Parkway (29 miles).

 

[bananas]

I got Eurostar from Paris Gare du Nord recently and it was just as rammed as St Pancras, even in areas relatively far away from the Eurostar area. Do you think expansion of services from St Pancras would almost entirely serve other European cities, or might increased service/competition on London-Paris mean Gare du Nord needs expansion too?

 

[Backroom_boy]

I got Eurostar from Paris Gare du Nord recently and it was just as rammed as St Pancras, even in areas relatively far away from the Eurostar area. Do you think expansion of services from St Pancras would almost entirely serve other European cities, or might increased service/competition on London-Paris mean Gare du Nord needs expansion too?

I don't think GdN has had an expansion since the launch of E*; did moving to StP give much more capacity? (Ie. Has GdN really fallen behind?)

 

[LLivery]

I got Eurostar from Paris Gare du Nord recently and it was just as rammed as St Pancras, even in areas relatively far away from the Eurostar area. Do you think expansion of services from St Pancras would almost entirely serve other European cities, or might increased service/competition on London-Paris mean Gare du Nord needs expansion too?

It's Europe's busiest station, they were supposed to be expanding it for the Olympics, but now it's just being done up instead. The proposals were very controversial

THE project to triple the size Paris Gare du Nord station ahead of the 2023 Rugby World Cup and 2024 Olympic Games has been cancelled by French National Railways (SNCF).

This follows the tripling of costs to €1.5bn and an expected completion date of 2026 for the transformation of the station.

Under plans approved in July 2020, the 155-year-old station, the busiest in Europe with 700,000 passengers per day using it prior to the outbreak of Covid-19, would have been tripled in size from 5000m² to 124,000m².

This was designed to accommodate rising footfall, with numbers expected to 800,000 by 2030. It had been planned that the project would be completed in time for the 2023 Rugby World Cup and the 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games, which are being held in the city.

The plans included 46,000m² of floor space for shops, offices, a gym, a concert hall, and other cultural venues, as well as an expanded arrivals and departures hall, parking for 2000 bicycles and a 11,400m² roof terrace with a view of the Sacre Coeur basilica.

However, on September 22, SNCF Gares & Connexions stated that the planned work no longer met the conditions agreed with property developer Ceetrus, the real estate subsidiary of the Auchan supermarket group, which had been awarded the contract to carry out the transformation.
A company, Gare du Nord 2024 was created, bearing the commercial name Stationord, which since February 2019 had been contracted to finance, design, build and operate the new shops at the station for a 46-year period.

However, SNCF says that on July 5 it was informed by Stationord that it was anticipating significant additional costs, with the work increasing in price from €389m to €750m, bringing the project’s total price to €1.5bn and therefore tripling the original €500m outlay.

Stationord also informed SNCF that the project would not be completed until 2026, meaning it would miss the major events it was supposed to be ready for.

“Given these unbearable excesses in relation to Stationord's contractual commitments, SNCF Gares & Connexions can only note the serious failure of its concessionaire and pronounce its forfeiture,” SNCF said in a statement. “As a result, SNCF Gares & Connexions will immediately undertake internally, a rapid adaptation of the Gare du Nord to the challenges of the two sporting events of 2023 and 2024; the design of a new project for the transformation of the Gare du Nord, drawn up in close consultation with the public actors concerned.”

French transport minister Mr Jean-Baptiste Djebbari told BFM television in France on September 21 that the government had asked SNCF to study a much smaller project costing around €50m.

Mr Antoine Grolin, chairman of the Ceetrus board of directors told AFP: "I don't know what they're going to do with €50m, apart from changing the windows and putting on a new coat of paint."
The City of Paris would like to point out the need not to postpone once again the modernisation and renovation of the station,” says Ms Anne Hidalgo, mayor of Paris.

“We are available and willing to initiate a new renovation project for the Gare du Nord, which is at the service of everyday users, urban integration and intermodality,” says Mr Emmanual Grégoire, first deputy to the mayor of Paris in charge of town planning, architecture. “This project must be able to be initiated for the Olympic and Paralympic Games 2024.”

“The inhabitants of the 10th district want a new, greener project for the Gare du Nord which will finally free its forecourt from car traffic and the many vehicles parked there every day,” says Ms Alexandra Cordebard, mayor of the 10th arrondissement of Paris. “Our ambition is to facilitate the opening of the station to its neighbourhood by giving more space to public transport, pedestrians and bicycles.”

 

[Cloud Strife]

I got Eurostar from Paris Gare du Nord recently and it was just as rammed as St Pancras, even in areas relatively far away from the Eurostar area. Do you think expansion of services from St Pancras would almost entirely serve other European cities, or might increased service/competition on London-Paris mean Gare du Nord needs expansion too?

I'd expect Gare du Nord needs expansion, but it shouldn't be too problematic if it has to be done. There's plenty of space at the side of platform 2 where there's nothing but some offices, and the whole area next to platform 3 could easily be transformed into an additional departures hall for Eurostar. Ideally, they really should just create a large 'railside' area in front of platforms 3-8 and allow for flexible Schengen / non-Schengen use of the platforms, as well as bringing the upper level forwards so that all the passengers for Thalys and Eurostar go through the same security area.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Ideally, they really should just create a large 'railside' area in front of platforms 3-8 and allow for flexible Schengen / non-Schengen use of the platforms, as well as bringing the upper level forwards so that all the passengers for Thalys and Eurostar go through the same security area.

I think the Home Office would have a meltdown. The whole reason for the border controls theatre is that the juxtaposed controls screen passengers pre-boarding, and then require them to be kept separate from intra-Schengen passengers.

 

[NCT]

As an (off-topic) aside - do Brussels TGV passengers go through security?

 

[Trainbike46]

As an (off-topic) aside - do Brussels TGV passengers go through security?

Eurostar red passengers normally don't

 

[NCT]

Eurostar red passengers normally don't

I thought Thalys had some luggage security? If Brussels TGVs (the SNCF TGVs to MLV/Lyon) aren't subject to security then Thalys security (if it's still a thing) seems completely pointless ...

 

[Trainbike46]

I thought Thalys had some luggage security? If Brussels TGVs (the SNCF TGVs to MLV/Lyon) aren't subject to security then Thalys security (if it's still a thing) seems completely pointless ...

I think that might have been a thing for a while, but not anymore? Eurostar red definitely doesn't have luggage security in Amsterdam and Rotterdam

 

[zwk500]

I think the Home Office would have a meltdown. The whole reason for the border controls theatre is that the juxtaposed controls screen passengers pre-boarding, and then require them to be kept separate from intra-Schengen passengers.

So long as there is moveable partitions and independent routes for passengers using the platforms for each purpose is not impossible - Platform 3 at Brussels has shutters that enable it to be switched between controlled and non-controlled. Presumably requires a sweep of the platform first. Also I think the Eurostar bays have another exit/entrance that can be used by non-security passengers if they need to.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Might be difficult to justify having the security/border facilities at more than two UK stations again, but I think Ashford would be the best option if just one more stop is added. Therefore passengers at Stratford/Ebbsfleet can use Southeastern services to change at Ashford, rather than going into St Pancras and back the other way again. Similarly some calls at Calais may be useful too, for passengers near the French coast travelling to London?

Can then focus on improving Southeastern HS1 services, if there are the paths for a more frequent service, or a case for more stops to be added. An interchange with C2C near Rainham/Purfleet could be useful, allowing for some new connections betweeen Essex and Kent, and perhaps a new Parkway station between Maidstone and Medway?

 

[zwk500]

Might be difficult to justify having the security/border facilities at more than two UK stations again, but I think Ashford would be the best option if just one more stop is added.

If any stops are added, it needs to be a sensible service not just random trains. I'd suggest that given the recent political changes Ebbsfleet as an M25 parkway may be a better bet than Ashford, but I know they're building on the former car parks so maybe ashford edges back ahead.

Similarly some calls at Calais may be useful too, for passengers near the French coast travelling to London?

This market will be miniscule, and not worth stopping the train for IMO. Certainly not when the border procedures require such large operating costs.

Can then focus on improving Southeastern HS1 services, if there are the paths for a more frequent service, or a case for more stops to be added. An interchange with C2C near Rainham/Purfleet could be useful, allowing for some new connections betweeen Essex and Kent, and perhaps a new Parkway station between Maidstone and Medway?

The whole point of a high speed railway is for trains to go as fast as possible. Stops = 0mph, i.e. the lowest speed possible. Adding more stops to HS1 will also adversely impact capacity, as well as requiring additional land for the loops and platforms (which doesn't appear to be available near C2C lines).

 

[Citybreak1]

Might be difficult to justify having the security/border facilities at more than two UK stations again, but I think Ashford would be the best option if just one more stop is added. Therefore passengers at Stratford/Ebbsfleet can use Southeastern services to change at Ashford, rather than going into St Pancras and back the other way again. Similarly some calls at Calais may be useful too, for passengers near the French coast travelling to London?

Can then focus on improving Southeastern HS1 services, if there are the paths for a more frequent service, or a case for more stops to be added. An interchange with C2C near Rainham/Purfleet could be useful, allowing for some new connections betweeen Essex and Kent, and perhaps a new Parkway station between Maidstone and Medway?

I don’t think Eurostar will ever stop at these stations again. I do however think Virgin will in the same way Lumo uses other stations like Morpeth.

 

[NCT]

I don’t think Eurostar will ever stop at these stations again. I do however think Virgin will in the same way Lumo uses other stations like Morpeth.

Morpeth doesn't require paying for a full border security force and brushing up mothballed equipment that's been gathering dust.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do however think Virgin will in the same way Lumo uses other stations like Morpeth.

1) Virgin are by no means certain of running any trains on HS2
2) If they do, they will be chasing profit. And that means not stopping at Ashford or Ebbsfleet unless they are required to as a condition of their access contract. They certainly will not choose to.