I thought summer next year was being discussed, rather than this year?
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SSR resignalling
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Pretty sure Oct/Nov this year was being proposed but perhaps the timeline has changed.
What sort of improvements is it likely to offer? I believe it’s required for potential 32tph in future, but any other improvements? Faster through the junction? Less waiting for a gap? Anything else?
Also, I imagine it’ll be a massive job so presume a blockade will be needed, potentially for a few weeks to a month? Does anyone know the likely effect of the works on the service? Or could the District, H&S and Circle sections be worked on independently?
What sort of improvements is it likely to offer? I believe it’s required for potential 32tph in future, but any other improvements? Faster through the junction? Less waiting for a gap? Anything else?
Also, I imagine it’ll be a massive job so presume a blockade will be needed, potentially for a few weeks to a month? Does anyone know the likely effect of the works on the service? Or could the District, H&S and Circle sections be worked on independently?
A blockade is very likely to go ahead, I suspect due to the complexity of the works. Summer 2027 has been pencilled in for a few years now.
Some reversing moves will no longer be possible, no doubt some new moves with new crossovers being commissioned etc. I don't know the full details as I've only asked around and what exactly the works entail. I suspect members who are involved in the project can comment further.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
The main loss of flexibility with the Aldgate renewal is the outer rail reverse and ‘alternative route’ into the Met platforms. The crossover within platform limits at Liverpool Street will also be removed.
The benefits should outweigh this though, and both are largely redundant with 4LM - Liverpool Street can now only be done by empty trains, and the outer rail reverse has effectively been replaced by the additional move at Tower Hill (which is in use this weekend!).
It is still proposed for next year but, as suggested, is dependent on the progress of 4LM because of the need to alter the signalling data.
The benefits should outweigh this though, and both are largely redundant with 4LM - Liverpool Street can now only be done by empty trains, and the outer rail reverse has effectively been replaced by the additional move at Tower Hill (which is in use this weekend!).
It is still proposed for next year but, as suggested, is dependent on the progress of 4LM because of the need to alter the signalling data.
Although I think the subject/objective is achieving a reliable 32 TPH (on the District line?) - All the clues seem to infer the remodelling involves the point layouts between Aldgate plats and Liverpool St. So will be interesting whether the District service is affected during the (whole) blockade.
I guess the intent is to allow more flexibility with H&C line trains (limitations when longer s7's introduced?) waiting for their slot onto the District line and improve speeds and points release times.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Regarding the blocking back/speeds/acceleration of trains on the East End of the District.
The more advanced signalling systems (such as 4LM) have many/various features to try and manage the service (beit to timetable or service interval) and LUL are no doubt still exploring/tweaking these features to avoid "congestion".
The timetable has been adjusted a few times to take advantage of the quicker runtimes achieved by automatic driving (to reduce trains being held to time at platforms).
Also timetabling/sequencing can help effective use of the crossing junctions and terminus stations (eg H&C and/or Circles using the Aldgate District line Junctions in "pairs")
There are features such as coasting ("gentler" ATO running) that can be used to make sure the trains arrive at desired times/slots (eg for crossing moves in Aldgate Area)
The Signalling control system system (which now has a much better overview of the service) can have Train regulation facilities to dynamically recommend/adjust the above.
I guess the intent is to allow more flexibility with H&C line trains (limitations when longer s7's introduced?) waiting for their slot onto the District line and improve speeds and points release times.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Regarding the blocking back/speeds/acceleration of trains on the East End of the District.
The more advanced signalling systems (such as 4LM) have many/various features to try and manage the service (beit to timetable or service interval) and LUL are no doubt still exploring/tweaking these features to avoid "congestion".
The timetable has been adjusted a few times to take advantage of the quicker runtimes achieved by automatic driving (to reduce trains being held to time at platforms).
Also timetabling/sequencing can help effective use of the crossing junctions and terminus stations (eg H&C and/or Circles using the Aldgate District line Junctions in "pairs")
There are features such as coasting ("gentler" ATO running) that can be used to make sure the trains arrive at desired times/slots (eg for crossing moves in Aldgate Area)
The Signalling control system system (which now has a much better overview of the service) can have Train regulation facilities to dynamically recommend/adjust the above.
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I know this comment is tongue-in-cheek, but on a serious note it does take more energy to get a train moving from a complete stop than to keep it going at a slower speed (static vs dynamic friction). And in addition, as everyone will be aware from being in traffic jams on the road, there are inevitable delays associated with getting a queue of stopped vehicles moving (as each has to wait for the one in front to actually start moving before setting off), and its much better if everyone just drives more slowly but keeps moving!So the standing wait is eliminated by going slower in the first place - genius!
bramling
Veteran Member
Wha often ends up happening in practice is one of these things
* the system slows down one train that is running early, but doesn’t take into account that the train behind is running late and is out-of-turn. So the late train gets even later. Either the signaller spots this and makes an intervention (sometimes too late to be effective), or it gets missed and you get a lumpy service.
* the “early” train is regulated so that it doesn’t arrive early, then there’s a delay at the station for whatever reason (perhaps a wheelchair being loaded), and it then ends up departing late.
* the signaller does a reformation for whatever reason which then results in the system working towards the timings for the reformed train. So you can then end up with something ridiculous like the train running at 20mph until someone notices and makes an adjustment.
Belperpete
Established Member
- Joined
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If a train is running out of turn, isn't this something that should at least have been flagged to the signaller at the time it was first decided to route them out of turn? That is surely the point at which the signaller should be thinking about the consequences.
I can see the logic for delaying a train arriving early at a junction where it is going to be held for a conflict, but not just to delay it arriving early at a station. Arriving early at a station is a benefit to those passengers getting off, and as you say can also help if the station stop is longer than normal.
If the signaller does a reformation, it is surely up to the signaller to think of the consequences.
You seem to be saying that many of the problems are down to the signallers not managing the system properly?
bramling
Veteran Member
It is flagged up in a couple of ways, but if the signaller is dealing with something else or not paying attention then it won’t get sorted.
Partly, and also partly because the system isn’t particularly user-friendly.
This weekend was apparently a "backup" for the 4LM 4 day testing closure about a month ago and not necessary (required testing for that stage completed?) so has been used for track work ( grinding /tamping) which should improve ride smoothness.
Thanks for the info
Dstock7080
Established Member
SMA10/12 still on for commissioning 13/14 June 2026.
One consequence is that Parsons Green 21Rd will be unavailable after that weekend until January 2027, due to ‘limited clearance issues’.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Is that one of the roads they use to turn trains round short of Wimbledon when there is serious late running?
Dstock7080
Established Member
Earl's Court Control Centre decommissioned; District Line movements Fulham Broadway-NR boundary (including Parsons Green sidings) transferred to Hammersmith Service Control Centre. Wimbledon ASCC will no longer control movements NR boundary-East Putney platforms.
Piccadilly Line Control Room will no longer control District Line train movements Barons Court-Stamford Brook.
Tripcock testers at Earl's Court platforms 1-4 will be decommissioned, equipment bagged. Speed of trains passing through lifted from 12mph to 19mph.
New tripcock testers were installed at East Putney in January and Turnham Green in April 2026.
Parsons Green 21 siding, out of use until early-2027.
District Line 13 June; entire Line suspended until approx-10.00. After approx-10.00 service Embankment-Upminster every 5min only.
after approx-13.00 Upminster-Richmond every 10min, Upminster-Ealing every 10min, Edgware Road-Parsons Green every 10min, Tower Hill-Parsons Green every 10min. (*trains will run empty Barons Court-Stamford Brook and Fulham Bdwy-Parsons Green.
District Line 14 June; until approx-09.30 Upminster-Richmond every 10min, Upminster-Ealing every 10min, Edgware Road-Parsons Green every 10min (*trains will run empty Barons Court-Stamford Brook and Fulham Bdwy-Parsons Green.
After approx-09.30 Upminster-Richmond every 10min, Upminster-Ealing every 10min, Edgware Road-Parsons Green every 10min, Tower Hill-Parsons Green every 10min. (*trains will run empty Barons Court-Stamford Brook and Fulham Bdwy-Parsons Green.
After approx-21.30 Upminster-Richmond every 10min, Upminster-Ealing every 10min, Edgware Road-Parsons Green every 10min, Tower Hill-Earl's Court/Olympia every 10min. (*trains will run empty Barons Court-Stamford Brook and Fulham Bdwy-Parsons Green.
Circle Line 13 June; entire Line suspended until approx-10.00. After approx-10.00 Hammersmith-Tower Hill pfm.2 every 10min. After approx-13.00 normal Saturday service resumes.
H&City Line 13 June; entire Line suspended until approx-10.00. After approx-10.00 normal Saturday service resumes.
MET Line 13 June; until approx-10.00 no service Harrow-on-the-Hill-Aldgate. After approx-10.00 normal Saturday service resumes.
Piccadilly Line 13 June; until approx-13.00 no service Hyde Park Corner-Acton Town. After approx-13.00 normal Saturday service resumes but trains will stop additionally at Turnham Green.
Piccadilly Line 14 June; trains will stop additionally at Turnham Green.
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Scotrail88
Member
- Joined
- 21 Jul 2014
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- 447
Is the noted speed increase the only improvement?
Dstock7080
Established Member
Not sure how many trains you have been on to appreciate the non-stopping speed improvement?
Platform DMIs will be more accurate Stamford Brook-Barons Court, Fulham Bdwy-East Putney, therefore across the Line.
Acceleration increases, capped in manual mode.
Reduction in mechanical signal failures, trainstops, bulbs, air hoses etc.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
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Does the above stuff about East Putney effectively mean LU signalling extends onto the NR maintained infrastructure, ie there’s an overlap between the track maintenance boundary and the signalling boundary? Or have I misunderstood?
bramling
Veteran Member
Yes.
There’s always some level of crossover between the two, as it’s not possible for signal boundaries to finish at a fixed point.
Dstock7080
Established Member
current LU home signal to Putney Bridge eastbound is WG2, situated over the LU/NR boundary but fully signalled and maintained by LU.
The track maintenance boundary is down at Wimbledon. The entire branch track, plus civils and associated assets (eg. fencing) is maintained by LU.
What it does do however is place some LU signalling assets on parts of the track that is *controlled* by Network Rail, as in access to the track is governed by NR’s rules. I don’t think this is anything new though, as boundaries across the network already have locations where NR equipment is on LU infrastructure and vice versa.
Dstock7080
Established Member
SMA10/12 commissioning postponed.
Unknown what impact this will have on services this weekend.
Unknown what impact this will have on services this weekend.
zwk500
Veteran Member
When is the next opportunity for the commissioning?
TfL status email just recieved confirms the works are postponed and says they will work to run as much of a service as possible.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
The rough plan as it stands is as follows:
-Circle line - no service prior to 1000 as planned
-Hammersmith & City line - approx 20 minute service between Hammersmith and Barking from around 0500 until 1000, then full service
-Metropolitan line - approx 12 minute service between Baker Street and Rayners Lane prior to 1000, with the previously advertised service running to the top end prior to 1000
-District line - prior to 1300 reduced service across the line broadly mimicking the recent strike timetables - Upminster-Olympia, Ealing Broadway/Richmond-High Street and Wimbledon to Edgware Road at varying frequencies. After 1300 a full service will operate, except for High Street Kensington to Edgware Road which will be suspended.
The Piccadilly and Jubilee lines will operate with the revisions previously published, and the planned rail replacement services will also run throughout.
Obviously all subject to change and ymmv.
-Circle line - no service prior to 1000 as planned
-Hammersmith & City line - approx 20 minute service between Hammersmith and Barking from around 0500 until 1000, then full service
-Metropolitan line - approx 12 minute service between Baker Street and Rayners Lane prior to 1000, with the previously advertised service running to the top end prior to 1000
-District line - prior to 1300 reduced service across the line broadly mimicking the recent strike timetables - Upminster-Olympia, Ealing Broadway/Richmond-High Street and Wimbledon to Edgware Road at varying frequencies. After 1300 a full service will operate, except for High Street Kensington to Edgware Road which will be suspended.
The Piccadilly and Jubilee lines will operate with the revisions previously published, and the planned rail replacement services will also run throughout.
Obviously all subject to change and ymmv.
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What's the reason? The email I got mentioned "last minute technical issues"
Nym
Established Member
That usually means, “Something the shop floor has been warning about for ages but all levels of Managment have plenty of sand to bury their heads into and ignore it until go live day when it won’t happen due to the aforementioned reason.”