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Splitting Tickets at stations with avoiding lines

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Old Timer

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Interesting, certainly a fare way to excess a season. I believe that an excess ticket essentially becomes the new ticket, so a Euston-Northampton ticket with an over-distance excess to Liverpool would be valid via Weedon. Could anyone confirm this please?
However, sadly it is no longer possible to excess a season in such a way, if a passenger nowadays wanted to travel Euston-Liverpool and help a Euston-Northampton season, they should be sold either:
a Northampton-Liverpool ticket, if they were to travel via Northampton, or
a Wolverton-Liverpool ticket, if they wanted to travel direct.

Weekend returns do still exist in some form on the ECML at least, as I have noticed them on the booking engines.
I can confirm from experience, albeit in the 1970s/80s.

I disagree with your interpretation that it would not be valid these days. This is what Clause (c) is all about. There is no difference in overall fare simply the proportionment of how the add-on is calculated.
 
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clagmonster

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Sorry, before I reply fully, may I clarify, is it my interpretation that a Euston-Northampton season and a Northampton-Liverpool saver combined would not be valid via Weedon you are disagreeing with?
 

Old Timer

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Sorry, before I reply fully, may I clarify, is it my interpretation that a Euston-Northampton season and a Northampton-Liverpool saver combined would not be valid via Weedon you are disagreeing with?
No what I am saying is that a Euston to Northampton season, combined with an add-on (excess if you wish) Northampton to Liverpool Lime St IS valid either via Northampton or via Weedon.

This is because you cannot pay MORE than the Euston to Liverpool fare when being excessed. The Liverpool ticket is in any case valid via Northampton.

I am disagreeing that you would need to be sold a Wolverton to Liverpool ticket. You should be excessed from the furthest reasonable point along the route, which in this scenario would be Northampton.
 

clagmonster

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The through Euston-Liverpool ticket being valid via Northampton I agree with.

A Euston-Norhampton saver with over-distance excess through to Liverpool I believe is valid via Weedon, though I am not certain on that.

A Euston-Northampton season with a Northampton-Liverpool saver (it sadly isn't possible to buy an over-distance excess for a season these days, this is the closest comparison), on the assumption that Euston-Northampton isn't valid via Rugby and Northampton-Liverpool isn't valid via Wolverton, I believe is not valid via Weedon. This is because condition 19 requires that the tickets "cover the entire journey", in this case they don't cover Wolverton-Rugby.
I do believe that said combination would be valid via Northampton, even if the train didn't stop there, regardless of the booked route. Of course, if a train was booked non-stop via Northampton but was diverted via Weedon, I would believe that was a valid ticket.

I believe that when we had a more reasonably Nationalised system, it would be valid but these days, sadly, I don't believe this is the case.
 

Old Timer

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The through Euston-Liverpool ticket being valid via Northampton I agree with.

A Euston-Norhampton saver with over-distance excess through to Liverpool I believe is valid via Weedon, though I am not certain on that.

A Euston-Northampton season with a Northampton-Liverpool saver (it sadly isn't possible to buy an over-distance excess for a season these days, this is the closest comparison), on the assumption that Euston-Northampton isn't valid via Rugby and Northampton-Liverpool isn't valid via Wolverton, I believe is not valid via Weedon. This is because condition 19 requires that the tickets "cover the entire journey", in this case they don't cover Wolverton-Rugby.
I do believe that said combination would be valid via Northampton, even if the train didn't stop there, regardless of the booked route. Of course, if a train was booked non-stop via Northampton but was diverted via Weedon, I would believe that was a valid ticket.

I believe that when we had a more reasonably Nationalised system, it would be valid but these days, sadly, I don't believe this is the case.
Ah but you are missing the point.

IF Class 1s never went via Northampton then you may have a point, but via Northampton is a normal route for Class 1s also it not a separate ticketing route, not to be confused with TOC validity.

Therefore a Euston to Northampton and a Northampton to Liverpool Lime St would be valid as the tickets cover the entire journey, and do so via the longer route !

Remember also that there are no stations on the Old Line.
 

LexyBoy

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If I may chip in late on a rather interesting thread, I made a similar question a few months ago about splitting at Didcot for a journey between Oxford and Reading. The verdict then was that since the routeing maps don't distinguish between the avoiding line and those going through the station, the routeing is equivalent whether you take the avoider or go through the station, and therefore it is valid. This interpretation makes perfect sense to me.

Certainly, I've not had any trouble with it and use this regularly. The only time it's been questioned was by a young XC guard who said it wasn't valid as the train didn't call at Didcot, but when I pointed out that the train doesn't need to call when it's a season+non-season combination he said "Fair enough, you're the expert" (!).

But when you come to places like Gloucester, that's a very tricky one. Certainly tickets routed Glocuester used to be valid via Cheltenham and not Gloucester back in the days of Gloucester Group, but is that the case now? Would a XC guard (Ferret, can you chip in here? ;)) accept a Milton Keynes to Taunton Route Gloucester ticket on a train that used the avoider? This goes through the place, but not the station.

Leaving aside the question of why anyone in their right mind would buy a Route:Gloucester ticket for that flow, it is valid according to the NR and EC journey planners so I would certainly hope it would be accepted! Which is interesting since the avoiding line is shown on the routeing maps in this case.
 

MichaelAMW

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Ah but you are missing the point.

IF Class 1s never went via Northampton then you may have a point, but via Northampton is a normal route for Class 1s also it not a separate ticketing route, not to be confused with TOC validity.

Therefore a Euston to Northampton and a Northampton to Liverpool Lime St would be valid as the tickets cover the entire journey, and do so via the longer route !

Remember also that there are no stations on the Old Line.

Actually, I don't think they are missing your point. There is no argument that London-Liverpool is valid via Northampton and via Weedon. Your description of what used to happen is that an over-distance excess used to be available for a season in exactly the same way as with a one-journey (single or return) ticket. To take up Clagmonsters point, I agree that a London-Northampton saver with an over-distance excess actually 'becomes' a London-Liverpool ticket, so can be used by any permitted route.

However, the current rules for seasons aren't the same. What is not so obvious - although I appreciate you have stated your view - is whether that crucial phrase, "cover the entire journey" implies that you have to go via the station where your tickets change or whether, as in the previous arrangement that you have described, you merely require any throughout validity from (here) London to Liverpool in order that you may go via any permitted route.

This whole issue has occurred to me before and I don't think the CoC is completely clear in this case, although it is clear enough that going via the changeover station will always be fine.
 

alan71

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Thanks for all the replies folks.

I had similar thoughts about Northampton too and I guess the scenario there could be repeated across most of the GWML really: i.e. season London to say Chippenham combined with Chippenham to Taunton return , do I now hold a 'London to Taunton' Ticket so can go via B&H line or Bristol Parkway and go nowhere near Chippenham at all - so similar to the London - Northampton - Liverpool example earlier on.


As an aside from this, when one does the combination of season + another ticket to go further & the train doesn't stop at the splitting station, what determines the ticket type you can buy to do the extension? The time you pass through the splitting station? the time of departure of the train you're on from it's origin?
 

hairyhandedfool

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....However, the current rules for seasons aren't the same. What is not so obvious - although I appreciate you have stated your view - is whether that crucial phrase, "cover the entire journey" implies that you have to go via the station where your tickets change or whether, as in the previous arrangement that you have described, you merely require any throughout validity from (here) London to Liverpool in order that you may go via any permitted route.

This whole issue has occurred to me before and I don't think the CoC is completely clear in this case, although it is clear enough that going via the changeover station will always be fine.

When dealing with two (or more) seperate tickets (not excesses) it is not always crutial to go via the 'splitting point'. I will use an example I know to explain how it works.

Liverpool to Earlestown and Earlestown to Manchester singles are valid for Liverpool-Hough Green-Warrington Central-Irlam-Manchester on a through train, provided the train stops at Warrington Central. This is because the Liverpool to Earlestown and Earlestown to Manchester singles are both valid via Warrington Central and so the tickets changeover there, there is no need to go via Earlestown.

Liverpool to Newton-le-Willows and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester singles would not be valid for Liverpool-Hough Green-Warrington Central-Irlam-Manchester because, although the Liverpool to Newton-le-Willows single is valid via Warrington, the Newton-le-Willows to Manchester ticket is not. The only point they meet is at Newton-le-Willows.

A Euston-Northampton season and Northampton-Rugby single together would not be valid on the line that avoids Northampton as neither ticket is valid for that stretch of line. A Euston-Northampton single excessed to a Euston Liverpool ticket would be valid to bypass Northampton. Bear in mind the line via Northampton is clearly shown in the routeing guide as a seperate route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
....As an aside from this, when one does the combination of season + another ticket to go further & the train doesn't stop at the splitting station, what determines the ticket type you can buy to do the extension? The time you pass through the splitting station? the time of departure of the train you're on from it's origin?

The validity of the ticket would state what trains you can use and hence determine what ticket type you should have.

As an illustration of how complex it can get, Manchester to Huddersfield CDR validity codes says "not valid for trains timed to arrive in Leeds before 0930". Which means the CDR is valid on the 0655 service from Manchester Victoria, but is not valid on the 0826 from Manchester Piccadilly, purely because the 0655 does not go to Leeds, but the 0826 does.
 
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LexyBoy

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As an aside from this, when one does the combination of season + another ticket to go further & the train doesn't stop at the splitting station, what determines the ticket type you can buy to do the extension? The time you pass through the splitting station? the time of departure of the train you're on from it's origin?

I’ve wondered about this too – the answer depends on how the restrictions on the ‘extension’ ticket are worded. In many cases the restrictions of the ‘extension’ ticket are easy to apply to the whole journey – e.g. “not valid to arrive/depart London before/after xxxx”. In cases where the restriction is “depart after xxxx”, I’m not sure (how does one interpret “depart” if a train’s not stopping?). Certainly if the train passes the station after the first train which would be valid on the non-season ticket alone, it’s surely valid, but I await an expert opinion for a definitive answer.
 

penaltyfines

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What about a season ticket from Paddington to Bristol, SOS Ticket from Bristol to Taunton, travelling on a fast from Padding to Taunton via route Westbury?
 

LexyBoy

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I love how hairyhandedfool and OldTimer both replied at exactly the same time, both saying it's valid but for completely different reasons :lol: Let battle commence!

Much as I would love for OldTimer's interpretation to be correct, I'm going to side with the manually hirsute one and say it's not. Using a season and a SGL/RTN ticket as allowed under 19c is still a combination of tickets and not an excess and thus the route must correspond to that of the tickets. I would say though that the NRCoC is (generally) ambiguously worded and it doesn't actually make reference to the route taken.
 

MichaelAMW

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I love how hairyhandedfool and OldTimer both replied at exactly the same time, both saying it's valid but for completely different reasons :lol: Let battle commence!

Much as I would love for OldTimer's interpretation to be correct, I'm going to side with the manually hirsute one and say it's not. Using a season and a SGL/RTN ticket as allowed under 19c is still a combination of tickets and not an excess and thus the route must correspond to that of the tickets. I would say though that the NRCoC is (generally) ambiguously worded and it doesn't actually make reference to the route taken.

That's basically my view. I am more than happy that Old Timer is correct, in terms of what you may use, but I don't really think at all that 19(c) says this. That said, to be fair to OT, if it is indeed true that you can go via any permitted route for the throughout journey then 19(c) certainly allows for this, i.e. it doesn't contradict the notion - but neither does it actually permit it explicitly.
 

penaltyfines

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That would be fine as the season and the single are valid via Westbury (according to FasTIS)

Sorry if you're not familiar with the route, but Westbury is NOT on the London-Bristol route.

Currently thinking it's not valid!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the same stead, what about:

Zone 1-6 Season
BZ6 to Bracknell (or anywhere on SWT)
Bracknell to Reading

Travelling fast Paddington (Zone 1) - Reading
 

LexyBoy

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Sorry if you're not familiar with the route, but Westbury is NOT on the London-Bristol route.

Currently thinking it's not valid!
But both PAD-BRI and BRI-TAU are valid via WSB, so PAD-WSB is covered by the season and WSB-TAU by the single (though probably cheaper to buy from WSB in this case).
In the same stead, what about:

Zone 1-6 Season
BZ6 to Bracknell (or anywhere on SWT)
Bracknell to Reading

Travelling fast Paddington (Zone 1) - Reading
I would say it’s not valid as you’d be off route on the Bracknell tickets. By OT’s interpretation though it would be valid.
 

Old Timer

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I love how hairyhandedfool and OldTimer both replied at exactly the same time, both saying it's valid but for completely different reasons :lol: Let battle commence!

Much as I would love for OldTimer's interpretation to be correct, I'm going to side with the manually hirsute one and say it's not. Using a season and a SGL/RTN ticket as allowed under 19c is still a combination of tickets and not an excess and thus the route must correspond to that of the tickets. I would say though that the NRCoC is (generally) ambiguously worded and it doesn't actually make reference to the route taken.
You have to look at the intent of 19(c). The purpose of it, is to allow a person holding a season ticket the ability to excess their Season Ticket to a destination further along the route.

The effect of the excess is to reach the actual fare that is valid for the journey at the time of travel, so for example if a reduced ticket is available, the the difference is to that fare. If only a full fare ticket is valid, then the excess is to that value.

The final outcome is that the passenger has now paid the correct fare for the journey, and this now modifies the tickets to allow them to be used in the same manner as if the ticket for that journey had been issued.

For example using the London to Taunton example, because the excess value is to the relevant price for the train service and time of day, the person has paid that price for the through ticket and may travel either route as the ticket itself is valid both routes.

Please note my use of the word EXCESS, which is the correct (always was) means of dealing with the situation.

I believe that the purchase of two separate tickets may well fundamentally vary things but I would have to seek a view from Yorkie or one of the resident RPIs on here on this first.
 

alan71

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Oh ok, my bad! Bad example... pick Castle Cary/Newbury Racecourse then?

It was why I picked my original example of Chippenham really...but checking the RG I see it is valid via Westbury to Paddington anyway on Map LA (via Bath or Melksham) .

So perhaps the Northampton example is the best (only?) one to use but as has been pointed out the NCoC isn't exactly clear on the matter.

(And to be pedantic on my own thread, is the Weedon route from Wolverton to Rugby really the 'avoiding line' for Northampton in the manner that Westbury & Frome are, as I seem to recall it was built before the line through Northampton itself - a wonderful lesson in Victorian NIMBYism which effectively relegated their town away from direct, fast services to pretty much anywhere - not that they'd have known that then of course!)
 

Old Timer

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In the same stead, what about:

Zone 1-6 Season
BZ6 to Bracknell (or anywhere on SWT)
Bracknell to Reading

Travelling fast Paddington (Zone 1) - Reading
Not valid as you are off reasonable route. Your journey is now Bracknell to Reading to Paddington.

My opinion of course - I could be wrong.

The absolute answer I believe would depend on whether there is a Reading to London SR Season Ticket, and if so, if it is valid via Ealing Broadway. Technically if there was a London (SR) then the scenario would be valid because the excess would be Bracknell to Reading, which would exceed the London to Reading fare.

What does the routing guide have to say ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
....So perhaps the Northampton example is the best (only?) one to use but as has been pointed out the NCoC isn't exactly clear on the matter.
I dont see that it needs to be. I picked up Northampton as it was one we have dealt with in the past.

Once a Season is excess to the extended destination then both tickets assume the validity of the ticket for which the price has been paid. For example if excessed to a reduced rate ticket which had time restrictions, the Season itself would NOT be valid unrestricted for its section of the journey.

Lets say the train starting from Euston is barred to reduced rate tickets, but is available from say Milton Keynes. You could NOT use the Season Ticket from Euston for the Milton Keynes section and the use the excess because the throughout fare paid equates to a reduced rate ticket which is NOT valid, and under excess rules, both tickets now become one.
 

LexyBoy

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You have to look at the intent of 19(c). The purpose of it, is to allow a person holding a season ticket the ability to excess their Season Ticket to a destination further along the route.

...snip...

Please note my use of the word EXCESS, which is the correct (always was) means of dealing with the situation.

I believe that the purchase of two separate tickets may well fundamentally vary things but I would have to seek a view from Yorkie or one of the resident RPIs on here on this first.

That all makes far too much sense to be right :lol: I agree with your last point - that I think is the difference between our viewpoints. IIRC, whenever the topic of excessing a season has come up, the answer has been that it can only be excessed to the equivalent season, and that for ‘one-off’ trips a separate ticket should be purchased. I’d be interested to read what the Manual has to say on the matter. It’d certainly be worth knowing if any guards or RPIs would consider it valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not valid as you are off reasonable route. Your journey is now Bracknell to Reading to Paddington.

My opinion of course - I could be wrong.

The absolute answer I believe would depend on whether there is a Reading to London SR Season Ticket, and if so, if it is valid via Ealing Broadway. Technically if there was a London (SR) then the scenario would be valid because the excess would be Bracknell to Reading, which would exceed the London to Reading fare.

What does the routing guide have to say ?

Not sure I follow this – that combination of tickets is valid for travel from London to Reading and does not require any calls at station stops en route. It would however (IMO) require the train to pass along the route valid on these tickets, i.e. Waterloo-Reading via Bracknell.
 

island

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A BZ# to BCE ticket will, unless I am mistaken, be issued route ASCOT.
 

Malderon

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I'm not entirely sure what the conculusions have been from this thread. For educational rather than practical purposes - If I had a Chichester to Redhill season ticket would I be able to extend my journey, say Redhill to East Croydon and travel on a Peak time train which use the Quarry line to bypass Redhill. I know its OK that the train doesnt call at Redhill as one of the tickets is a season ticket, but does the quarry line count as passing through Redhill?

I have seen some maps where a distinction is shown between the Quarry line and the rest of the BML but most don't.
 

LexyBoy

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A BZ# to BCE ticket will, unless I am mistaken, be issued route ASCOT.

Don't have Avantix so can't check at the moment, but Feltham to Bracknell is Any Permitted (and could equally be used in this example).

I don't believe that a BZ6-BCE ticket would be valid any other route anyway (there is an "easement" forbidding travel via Reading).

I may be mistaken but I believe that tickets on this route (for example, Reading to Richmond) have recently changed from being +Any Permitted or Not London to Any Permitted (not being valid via London) and London.
 

Old Timer

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....Not sure I follow this – that combination of tickets is valid for travel from London to Reading and does not require any calls at station stops en route. It would however (IMO) require the train to pass along the route valid on these tickets, i.e. Waterloo-Reading via Bracknell.
It is not always necessary for the train to travel over the lines concerned. Let me give you a practical example from many years ago.

A Bedford Midland to London St Pancras Season Ticket was valid only via Luton, however there was also the ability to buy a Bedford St Johns to London Euston via Bletchley Season Ticket - which was a longer distance journey 63 miles as opposed to 50 miles.

The ticket via Bletchley was valid for travel between Bedford Midland and London St Pancras, even though the two routes were separate. For the avoidance of doubt we used to endorse them as such.

A similar situation arose at St Albans Abbey / City stations.

The trick here is that a Season Ticket MUST exist via the longer route for it to be available via the shorter route, and in reverse there must be a through fare available along the intended route.

Again by way of example using the Bedford example.

A fare was published St Pancras to Bedford Midland. A fare was also published from London Euston to Bedford St Johns. As both stations were in the same town it thus became the case that the ticket for the longer route was available via the shorter, something we called Interchangeability in those days.

A similar situation existed in respect of Hertford North / East and Enfield Town / Chase.

A Season Ticket between London Euston and Birmingham New St was valid only via Rugby, whereas a Season Ticket from London Paddington via Oxford was valid both via Oxford (High Wycombe as well) and via Rugby because the Oxford fare was higher.
 

LexyBoy

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I'm not entirely sure what the conculusions have been from this thread. For educational rather than practical purposes - If I had a Chichester to Redhill season ticket would I be able to extend my journey, say Redhill to East Croydon and travel on a Peak time train which use the Quarry line to bypass Redhill. I know its OK that the train doesnt call at Redhill as one of the tickets is a season ticket, but does the quarry line count as passing through Redhill?

I have seen some maps where a distinction is shown between the Quarry line and the rest of the BML but most don't.

Not a line I'm familiar with, but the distinction isn't shown on the routeing maps so I can't imagine there would be any trouble.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is not always necessary for the train to travel over the lines concerned. Let me give you a practical example from many years ago.
(...)

This is still the case for a few places (not sure about the examples you state - I suspect that where the routes are served by competing companies the "AAA" fares are no longer available). Certainly alternative routes are very common - e.g. High Wycombe for Brum, Salisbury/Honiton for the SW, etc.

I was more asking why you thought that combination wouldn't be valid (if you consider a combination of tickets for a journey from A-B as equivalent to an excess and thus valid on any route).
 

hairyhandedfool

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The Redhill and Quarrry line example is not unlike the Northampton example, the Quarry line has no stations, but runs parallel with (and even crossing at one point) the Redhill lines, which serve a few stations. They are both part of the Brighton Mainline between Salfords (north of Gatwick) and Purley.

But, unlike the Northampton example, they are never far from each other. I guess the most similar example to them is the WCML slow lines (or is it the reliefs?) running round the back of Willesden shed, they are not far away from the fast lines, but not alongside them.
 
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