Splitting Tickets at stations with avoiding lines

[alan71]

I occasionally buy a weekly Any Permitted season from Newport (NWP) to London terminals.
So this allows me to travel via Westbury to Waterloo or Paddington as well as the faster direct GWML.
Which led me the think, well what if I wanted to head further west ie towards Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth etc purchasing the extra ticket from Westbury westwards & combine it with the season ticket to get to/from Paddington..... and I caught one of the trains which didn't stop at Westbury using the avoiding line - is this allowable? is it written anywhere? does the train actually have to go through Westbury station? Is Joe Public supposed to know this?

The other place I can think of off the top of my head is Frome (Darlington / Dunbar / Bedford Midland may be stretching it a bit) where there are avoiding lines away from the station platforms.

cheers

 

[142094]

It depends on what type of tickets you have for A-B and B-C. For example if you had an anytime single A-B and an anytime single B-C, the train would have to stop at the spitting station for the tickets to be valid, so you would not be able to use them on services that use avoiding lines.

In some cases where you have a season ticket and another ticket, you are able to use trains which do not stop at that station.

 

[alan71]

It depends on what type of tickets you have for A-B and B-C. For example if you had an anytime single A-B and an anytime single B-C, the train would have to stop at the spitting station for the tickets to be valid, so you would not be able to use them on services that use avoiding lines.

In some cases where you have a season ticket and another ticket, you are able to use trains which do not stop at that station.

I have a season which covers me for the London - Westbury bit, so I know I'll be ok on a service not stopping there. My question is around the fact that Westbury has an avoiding line away from the station & so is it ok to use it as the splitting point (rather than say Pewsey one stop previously) - i.e. are trains on the avoiding line deemed as passing through Westbury Station even they they physically don't?

 

[Stuwhu]

I thought a train had to stop at the station to be able to split there, so it wouldn't matter if it went through the station or avoided it.

 

[142094]

Depends on what type of ticket you have. Condition 19 of the NRCoC says:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket is not.

So if you have a Season to Westbury and then wanted to go to the next station along the line, you could buy a single to whatever station that is and it would be valid under condition 19 (c). It wouldn't matter if the train took the avoiding line - in most cases passengers probably would not know if the train was due to take the avoider or not (for example at Darlington some non-stopping services occasionally use the platforms and not the avoider).

 

[Paul Kelly]

are trains on the avoiding line deemed as passing through Westbury Station even they they physically don't?

I don't think they are, but on the other hand I don't think that's necessary as the NRCoC simply says:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and [...] one of the tickets is a Season Ticket

I interpret this to mean, for the case where one ticket is a season and the other(s) aren't, that there are no stretches of track you will pass over that aren't covered by one or the other ticket. Whether this is true at Westbury will depend on the exact layout of the lines I suppose...

When splitting with non-season tickets, this applies:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and [...] the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another

IMHO the requirement for the changeover point to be in a station (rather than simply at a junction somewhere) therefore only applies when splitting with non-season tickets.

I thought a train had to stop at the station to be able to split there, so it wouldn't matter if it went through the station or avoided it.

Not if one of the tickets is a season and the other(s) aren't - see NRCoC Section 19.

 

[MikeWh]

I thought a train had to stop at the station to be able to split there, so it wouldn't matter if it went through the station or avoided it.

If one ticket is a season ticket and the other(s) is/are not then the train does not have to stop. Sadly I'm not sure about lines which avoid stations but only just.

 

[142094]

I'm sure that in cases such as Westbury and Darlington it would be alright. After all a passenger doesn't know that it uses the avoiding line, but does know it goes through Darlington. Think we had the same problem for the South Pennines Day Ranger which on one of the maps said a certain route between Sheffield and Leeds wasn't valid which is used by XC trains, but how a passenger was supposed to know which way it took between two of the intermediate stations was anyones guess.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Looking at a map of Westbury on OpenStreetMap, I'm not sure you are fully covered. If I understand correctly, the season would be valid on the line heading north out of Westbury (towards Newport), or heading east or south (towards London via Pewsey or Warminster respectively). The avoiding line isn't covered by the season because it doesn't link any of those lines. Neither is it covered by a ticket starting from Westbury, since it doesn't go through Westbury. My (fairly clueless, but based on some sort of logic) opinion is that you'd need to buy a ticket from Pewsey.

See attached for a little picture where I've annotated the OpenStreetMap (you can check if I've made any major misunderstandings there). Sections of track with a blue line drawn alongside are covered by a Newport to London Terminals season. Sections with a red line are covered by a Westbury to Taunton single. The avoiding line isn't covered by either, but it is covered by a Pewsey to Taunton single.

Does it look right?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I'm sure that in cases such as Westbury and Darlington it would be alright. After all a passenger doesn't know that it uses the avoiding line, but does know it goes through Darlington. Think we had the same problem for the South Pennines Day Ranger which on one of the maps said a certain route between Sheffield and Leeds wasn't valid which is used by XC trains, but how a passenger was supposed to know which way it took between two of the intermediate stations was anyones guess.

I think that's a slightly different issue. You can be sure a train starting from Westbury won't be passing through Westbury on the avoiding line, so why would a ticket from Westbury be valid there (and where on the avoiding line would the validity start?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
P.S. I'm sure that all comes across as very pedantic, but I'm thinking in terms of someday being able to implement a computerised version of the routeing guide/ticket validity checker that actually works properly, and corner cases like this need to be defined somehow...

 

[142094]

I'm trying in vain to remember what was said the last time but I'm sure there wasn't a problem with it. As long as the ticket is correct routeing wise, then I can't see a problem for example with someone splitting Newcastle - York at Darlington on a service that uses the avoider.

 

[nedchester]

I'm sure that in cases such as Westbury and Darlington it would be alright. After all a passenger doesn't know that it uses the avoiding line, but does know it goes through Darlington. Think we had the same problem for the South Pennines Day Ranger which on one of the maps said a certain route between Sheffield and Leeds wasn't valid which is used by XC trains, but how a passenger was supposed to know which way it took between two of the intermediate stations was anyones guess.

As the person who was excessed by the rather desperate gripper on AXC between Sheffield and Wakefield I can say that the South Pennines Day Ranger IS valid between Sheffield to Wakefield W as a passenger is not expected to know which route the train takes between the two stations.

I have a letter from AXC to confirm it (in which they included the refund for the excess!)

 

[142094]

As the person who was excessed by the rather desperate gripper on AXC between Sheffield and Wakefield I can say that the South Pennines Day Ranger IS valid between Sheffield to Wakefield W as a passenger is not expected to know which route the train takes between the two stations.

I have a letter from AXC to confirm it (in which they included the refund for the excess!)

I'm probably doing a South Pennines trip soon so will make sure I go on a XC train to see what happens.

 

[nedchester]

I'm probably doing a South Pennines trip soon so will make sure I go on a XC train to see what happens.

Since 'the event' (last April) I've used a South Pennine Day Ranger a few times on AXC between Sheffield and Wakefield/Leeds and had no problem.

 

[yorkie]

I thought a train had to stop at the station to be able to split there, so it wouldn't matter if it went through the station or avoided it.

No, the train does not need to call for the OP to be able to use a season and non-season! The train must however pass through... and that's a tricky question to answer!

I'm trying in vain to remember what was said the last time but I'm sure there wasn't a problem with it. As long as the ticket is correct routeing wise, then I can't see a problem for example with someone splitting Newcastle - York at Darlington on a service that uses the avoider.

A York-Newcastle train that goes via Durham must go via Darlington, the actual line travelled on doesn't matter of course, there is no requirement for the train to pass through a line that is adjacent to a platform!

But the question is: are trains that use the Westbury avoider (for the avoidance of doubt, this avoids the station but does not avoid the town) considered to be passing through Westbury? The answer, according to TRUST, is yes, they do pass through. So it's valid.

But when you come to places like Gloucester, that's a very tricky one. Certainly tickets routed Glocuester used to be valid via Cheltenham and not Gloucester back in the days of Gloucester Group, but is that the case now? Would a XC guard (Ferret, can you chip in here? ) accept a Milton Keynes to Taunton Route Gloucester ticket on a train that used the avoider? This goes through the place, but not the station.

Carmarthen is similar, and I am sure there are many more. (Perhaps Flamingo could comment on the Carmarthen issue?)

A very interesting issue indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm probably doing a South Pennines trip soon so will make sure I go on a XC train to see what happens.

One possibility is the guard says "You must be 142094! I'm Ferrett.." (although perhaps not if the train was busy; what would the other passengers think? lol)

 

[142094]

Rotherham is another one that might be tricky - trains can either go through the station or via Masborough, although I'm leaning towards that it wouldn't be valid.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Lets not confuse the specialist knowledge (which railway staff have access to and which some enthusiasts will know from observation), with what is written in the terms of the contract (which is in its own way, a specialist's document).

The timing points for a journey in TRUST cannot be an element in the contract if the relevant places are not included in the ticket's restrictions.
The rail professional's documents and the enthusiasts' observations of various tracks and structures cannot be an element in the contract with the passenger.
The alternative but unadvertised routes ocassionally taken for a variety of technical reasons known to railway professionals cannot be included in the ticket's restrictions.

This question cannot, in fact, be answered by reference to any of the published documents available to one party to the contract (the passenger); so it beggars belief that the other party (the TOC(s)) would seek to introduce them during any journey.

If a train goes through the physical railway tracks installed in, near, or at Westbury well over 100 years ago, and referred to by Railway operators then and now as 'Westbury' and by passengers then and now as 'Westbury', then it goes through Westbury.
It still does, and will for years to come.

Of all the undefined terms in the NRCoC which I'd like to see better defined (such as 'journey'), and there are a few, this just isn't on my list.

 

[stfletch]

Lol. Posts keep poping up that are very close to my own queries.

Thanks to the answer I got in this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42438 I know that I can split a season ticket and PTE season ticket at a station that is not being stopped at. (Split at Rugby for the Birmingham new Street - Milton Keynes route). But now I wonder if I could possibly split at Northampton which would be even cheaper for me.

But it seems that this is the same issue as posted by the OP about avoiding lines. Northampton is on the Birmingham New Street to Milton Keynes route but The Virgin Trains I catch do not use the same line that Northampton actually sits on.

Any thoughts on whether this one would be valid or not?

 

[yorkie]

But it seems that this is the same issue as posted by the OP about avoiding lines. Northampton is on the Birmingham New Street to Milton Keynes route but The Virgin Trains I catch do not use the same line that Northampton actually sits on.

Any thoughts on whether this one would be valid or not?

Hmm, look on a map!

The Westbury one is a very valid question because the route goes through the town, but avoids the station itself.

Northampton is on a completely different line to the WCML, it's not a case of an avoider and narrowly missing the station!

Of course you could get slightly more extreme examples and then ask "where do you draw the line?" But if anyone tried to combine MKC - NMP and NMP - RUG tickets and used a train that used the WCML, I think you can safely say they'd not have a leg to stand on.

 

[clagmonster]

In the case of Northampton, I would say no as the main line is a fair way from Northampton.

In the Westbury case, the Great Western route map does not show the avoided:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/RouteMap/fgwRouteMap.pdf
Neither do any of the National Rail Network maps:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/OfficialNationalRailmaplarge.pdf
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/syste...int_maps/Network_Rail_geographic_map_2011.pdf
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/nationalrailnetworkmap.pdf
Indeed, I don't think there is anywhere in the public information that shows the Westbury (or Darlington) avoiders as separate routes, so I think that trains using them could be used with a season and a non-season split at Westbury.

In the case of Camarthern and Swansea, the Network Rail published map, which in my opinion is the most comprehensive, show the avoiders as separate routes, so I think they are on much more sticky ground.

Like Yorkie, I would be interested to read Flamingo's view on the Westbury and Camarthen examples and any other proffessional gripping views.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was typing when Yorkie posted. Personally, I think the safe line to draw is when the Network Rail published National map, lined below, shows the line as a different route.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/syste...int_maps/Network_Rail_geographic_map_2011.pdf

Applying the same logic, I have reached a differing opinion on the Watford DC Line. I will post this when I get a chance to find the relevent topic.

 

[Greenback]

Lets not confuse the specialist knowledge (which railway staff have access to and which some enthusiasts will know from observation), with what is written in the terms of the contract (which is in its own way, a specialist's document).

The timing points for a journey in TRUST cannot be an element in the contract if the relevant places are not included in the ticket's restrictions.
The rail professional's documents and the enthusiasts' observations of various tracks and structures cannot be an element in the contract with the passenger.
The alternative but unadvertised routes ocassionally taken for a variety of technical reasons known to railway professionals cannot be included in the ticket's restrictions.

This question cannot, in fact, be answered by reference to any of the published documents available to one party to the contract (the passenger); so it beggars belief that the other party (the TOC(s)) would seek to introduce them during any journey.

If a train goes through the physical railway tracks installed in, near, or at Westbury well over 100 years ago, and referred to by Railway operators then and now as 'Westbury' and by passengers then and now as 'Westbury', then it goes through Westbury.
It still does, and will for years to come.

Of all the undefined terms in the NRCoC which I'd like to see better defined (such as 'journey'), and there are a few, this just isn't on my list.

An excellent post, Dave. It would be a nonsense if anyone tried to claim that a train that was routed via the Westbury avoiding line does not pass through Westbury! But the system is full of nonsense so it wouldn't really surprise me if the following happened:

TM: All tickets please
OP passes tickets over
Sorry, these tickets are not valid as this train is booked via the Westbury avoiding line, and you must pass through Westbury station. You need to buy a new ticket, that's £250 please.
OP: Are you serious? What's an avoiding line?
TM: It's a line that avoids the station. There's one at Westbury. As such we don't pass through the point at which your tickets changeover. £250 please.
OP: But how do I know that the train uses an avoiding line?
TM: It's all in the working timetable sir.

Discussion continues for 100 miles
TM: And your receipt for £250, sir.
OP: Thanks, er, aren't we passing through Westbury station now?
TM: Er, yes, sir, you are absolutely right, we must have been rerouted through the station. I'll just cancel your new ticket...

Cue theme music from Monty Python's Flying Circus

 

[b0b]

Don't forget that it has happened, the whole WSMR "Route Birmingham" ticket fiasco!

 

[Old Timer]

The answer to the question is to be found in history.

Question : Why are you allowed to use a Season Ticket and a separate ticket for a throughout journey ?

Answer : In the 1970s and 1980s, many people who worked in London travelled to the London area and lived in the suburbs many of the line of route. The problem came of course when they wanted to go home at a weekend. Did they need to buy a throughout weekend return ticket or could they pay the excess in distance.

BR adopted the policy that in such cases it was only necessary to buy a ticket for the extended portion of the journey, and hence this is why the exemption still sits in the rules, so to speak.

Obviously commuting patterns have changed since then, which is why questions are asked to use the ruling for something that it was never intended to allow.

For the avoidance of doubt, there was no need for the train to pas through the station as long as the correct fare was paid for the extension. This meant that if there were two alternative routes, then the longer would be valid via the shorter but not vice versa.

Stations such as Westbury and Gloucester do not affect the situation and it is pedantry to debate whether or not a train passes through or doesn't - in the case of a season ticket..

 

[Paul Kelly]

But the question is: are trains that use the Westbury avoider (for the avoidance of doubt, this avoids the station but does not avoid the town) considered to be passing through Westbury? The answer, according to TRUST, is yes, they do pass through. So it's valid.

That sounds interesting - can you show an example of what this TRUST output looks like (for the Westbury example)? Is it the same as what you would get in the timetable data feed if you licensed it from ATOC? I've been wondering for a while if that contains enough information to unambiguously identify the exact route a train follows.

 

[clagmonster]

Old Timer, thanks for your historical insight into the matter. I only hope for the sake of common sense and reason that the official view is still the same as it was back in your day.

 

[Old Timer]

An excellent post, Dave. It would be a nonsense if anyone tried to claim that a train that was routed via the Westbury avoiding line does not pass through Westbury! But the system is full of nonsense so it wouldn't really surprise me if the following happened:

TM: All tickets please
OP passes tickets over
Sorry, these tickets are not valid as this train is booked via the Westbury avoiding line, and you must pass through Westbury station. You need to buy a new ticket, that's £250 please.
OP: Are you serious? What's an avoiding line?
TM: It's a line that avoids the station. There's one at Westbury. As such we don't pass through the point at which your tickets changeover. £250 please.
OP: But how do I know that the train uses an avoiding line?
TM: It's all in the working timetable sir.

Discussion continues for 100 miles
TM: And your receipt for £250, sir.
OP: Thanks, er, aren't we passing through Westbury station now?
TM: Er, yes, sir, you are absolutely right, we must have been rerouted through the station. I'll just cancel your new ticket...

Cue theme music from Monty Python's Flying Circus

Your scenario would only be valid in the case where the train was required to stop at the station. For scenarios where the train does NOT require to stop at the station, there has never been a dispute about it.

By way of example, a Northampton to Euston Season back in the 1970s/80s, would be accepted without question with a Northampton to say Liverpool or Carlisle extension ticket.

The devil is in the detail and the detail is whether the use of the facility is legitimate or is being used as a means of avoiding the correct fare.

 

[clagmonster]

Trouble is, in the 70s/80s everything was BR so there was no revenue share to worry about, so that was a perfectly reasonable and logical. Nowadays, in said situation, there are at least two companies concerned, so I feel that a Euston-Liverpool passenger travelling straight down the main line with a Euston-Northampton season and Northampton-Liverpool saver would be chinged up for a Milton Keynes-Rugby ticket. My interpretation of the rules is that, unless Northampton-Liverpool is valid via the Keynes, then their ticket combination would not cover the full journey, so it would technically be correct, however reasonable or not. The question for me is where to draw the line, as I think excess someone at Westbury/Rotherham where the two lines are not even distinctly 'advertised' would be absurd.

 

[b0b]

This question cannot, in fact, be answered by reference to any of the published documents available to one party to the contract (the passenger); so it beggars belief that the other party (the TOC(s)) would seek to introduce them during any journey.

I'm pretty sure the TOC would be very happy to point out a double back on a fast train thats passing through a station you would double back through as it is passing through that station, even though that information is not publicly available.

The answer I get on that is "call NRE - that's publicly available"

 

[Old Timer]

Trouble is, in the 70s/80s everything was BR so there was no revenue share to worry about, so that was a perfectly reasonable and logical. Nowadays, in said situation, there are at least two companies concerned, so I feel that a Euston-Liverpool passenger travelling straight down the main line with a Euston-Northampton season and Northampton-Liverpool saver would be chinged up for a Milton Keynes-Rugby ticket. My interpretation of the rules is that, unless Northampton-Liverpool is valid via the Keynes, then their ticket combination would not cover the full journey, so it would technically be correct, however reasonable or not. The question for me is where to draw the line, as I think excess someone at Westbury/Rotherham where the two lines are not even distinctly 'advertised' would be absurd.

I do not know - Yorkie will though- that a Northampton to say Liverpool would be less than the throughout relevant ticket.

For excess purposes, a season was always treated as representing the proportionate fare, or where not available then a cheap day return.

For example.

London to Northampton with a weekend extension to Liverpool, was charged at the difference between a London to Northampton W/E fare (I recall there was such a beast) and the London to Liverpool W/E.

Where there was no W/E ticket, say for example Bletchley, the difference would be the London to Bletchley CDR and the relevant London to Liverpool W/E.

We did not use the Ordinary return fare as the season was discounted to 3&1/2 times the standard return fare.

The dictum is (was ?) that as long as you have paid for the longer journey, the shorter always becomes valid.

I really do wish now that I had kept my TEH manual from those days.

 

[clagmonster]

Interesting, certainly a fare way to excess a season. I believe that an excess ticket essentially becomes the new ticket, so a Euston-Northampton ticket with an over-distance excess to Liverpool would be valid via Weedon. Could anyone confirm this please?
However, sadly it is no longer possible to excess a season in such a way, if a passenger nowadays wanted to travel Euston-Liverpool and help a Euston-Northampton season, they should be sold either:
a Northampton-Liverpool ticket, if they were to travel via Northampton, or
a Wolverton-Liverpool ticket, if they wanted to travel direct.

Weekend returns do still exist in some form on the ECML at least, as I have noticed them on the booking engines.