Split Ticketing are you fully covered

[wintonian]

(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;

I would have hoped that accidents to passengers or railway employees/ contractors would also be outside of a TOC's control.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just a note - Delay Repay does not usually discriminate between reasons for the delay. Even if you're delayed by a suicide, or a typhoon, you are entitled to compensation.

 

[John @ home]

I agree that the Delay Repay scheme goes beyond the rights set out in NRCoC. It has been a condition of all recent franchises.

 

[34D]

Personally I think that all apex tickets should provide travel in DVT / guards brake only, standing or sat on wooden seats, with no heating and no ventilation. Refreshments should be limited to dry bread and water. And no entitlement to delay repay or to hotel/taxis. But I don't make the rules up.

 

[John @ home]

Personally I think that all apex tickets should provide travel in DVT / guards brake only, standing or sat on wooden seats, with no heating and no ventilation. Refreshments should be limited to dry bread and water.

Some of us will be glad that all apex tickets were abolished in 2008!

 

[bb21]

Refreshments should be limited to dry bread and water.

I would be quite happy if basic meals are provided in Standard Class.

 

[Greenback]

Some people might consider dry bread and water better than some of the complimentary refreshments in EC First Class. When they are available.

I'm afraid I am a bit confused about this thread. I can't seem to work out what it's all about?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Some people might consider dry bread and water better than some of the complimentary refreshments in EC First Class. When they are available.

Guilty as charged - having assesed the comparison.

I'm afraid I am a bit confused about this thread. I can't seem to work out what it's all about?

You're not alone.

 

[34D]

I'm afraid I am a bit confused about this thread. I can't seem to work out what it's all about?

I think the OP is asking whether you are 'covered' when things go wrong - where the textbook answer is yes of course you are, but on the ground things may be different (like the recent NXEA stranded thread)

 

[Daz28]

For the purposes of condition 45, is Network Rail considered a Train Company or Rail Service Company?

It would appear that for the purposes of assisting stranded passengers, there are very few circumstances covered. Cancellations due to Train Faults and lack of staff being the key ones not excluded.

 

[blacknight]

The NRCoC states that if you wish to claim compensation the train company will allow you to keep your ticket for that purpose.

But if passenger as been given taxi to their complete journey is that not a means of compensation. IMO you are not entitled any further compensation so you can have or the other not both
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope, still not getting it.

Let me expand then & make things clearer then
If a taxi is used the travel ticket is required to be submitted with form as proof it was indeed used for a passenger otherwise system could be open to abuse by staff, for instance say your partner want to go Christmas shopping in big town a bent member of staff would be able to put spouse in taxi & get TOC to footbill by picking a late running service & claim that taxi was used to get stranded passenger home.
Passenger cannot claim under delay repay without travel ticket.

 

[yorkie]

For the purposes of condition 45, is Network Rail considered a Train Company or Rail Service Company?.

Network Rail is a Rail Service Company

(n) “Rail Service Company” means Network Rail, any person (other than a Train Company) who operates a station and any person who hires rolling stock to a Train Company, but does not include London Underground;

But if passenger as been given taxi to their complete journey is that not a means of compensation. IMO you are not entitled any further compensation so you can have or the other not both

Can you confirm if you are stating what you believe the actual position of the Railway is? or are you stating your opinion of what you wish it to be?

Let me expand then & make things clearer then
If a taxi is used the travel ticket is required to be submitted with form as proof it was indeed used for a passenger otherwise system could be open to abuse by staff, for instance say your partner want to go Christmas shopping in big town a bent member of staff would be able to put spouse in taxi & get TOC to footbill by picking a late running service & claim that taxi was used to get stranded passenger home.
Passenger cannot claim under delay repay without travel ticket.

I assume a copy is made, but that's down to the TOC. Also, if you book with East Coast online, then you can submit a scan of the ticket for Delay Repay. It has already been explained to you that there is a system to deal with this.

Again, I ask, are you stating the actual position of the Railway, or your opinion of how you wish it to be?

 

[LexyBoy]

But if passenger as been given taxi to their complete journey is that not a means of compensation

No, it's not a form of compensation at all, it is provided to fulfill the company's obligation to get the passenger to their destination.

If their arrival at their destination - by whatever means - is late enough to warrant compensation for the delay, that is a seperate matter. Of course, it's perfectly possible that a taxi could get the passenger to their destination at the scheduled arrival time of a missed connexion, in which case no compensation would be due.

If a taxi is used the travel ticket is required to be submitted with form as proof it was indeed used for a passenger otherwise system could be open to abuse by staff, for instance say your partner want to go Christmas shopping in big town a bent member of staff would be able to put spouse in taxi & get TOC to footbill by picking a late running service & claim that taxi was used to get stranded passenger home.

As I don't work in the industry I can't say how easy it would be to get away with this. However, I find it rather hard to believe that anyone would risk their job in this way for the sake of a few quid, not to mention the fact that it would only be possible on the unpredictable occasions a suitably delayed service could be picked.

 

[blacknight]

No, it's not a form of compensation at all, it is provided to fulfill the company's obligation to get the passenger to their destination.

If their arrival at their destination - by whatever means - is late enough to warrant compensation for the delay, that is a seperate matter. Of course, it's perfectly possible that a taxi could get the passenger to their destination at the scheduled arrival time of a missed connexion, in which case no compensation would be due.

By giving both a taxi & delay repay it allows for system to be abused by passenger. For instance train arrives 35 minutes late & misses connection, next service not for over 3 hours.
If I allow passenger to retain ticket could they not submit a claim under delay rey of over 3 hour late rather than 35 minutes that inward service was. See why I want the ticket now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course - which is why the TOC will ask for both ticket and taxi receipt.

The TOC will (if necessary and justified) pay for the taxi, and, if the taxi gets you in late in any case, still provide compensation for the delay.

You don't forfeit rights to compensation just because the train was late and the TOC put on a taxi for you. You were still inconvenienced, so compensation is payable.

Are you telling us what the industry position is (in which case you are wrong), or what your opinion is?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But if passenger as been given taxi to their complete journey is that not a means of compensation. IMO you are not entitled any further compensation so you can have or the other not both....

So you are saying that....

If the traveller gets a taxi ride to the destination (completion of contracted services) they cannot claim compensation (despite it being a clause in the contract).

If the traveller does not get to his destination (stranded - breach of contract) he can claim compensation for getting to his destination late (clause in contract)....except of course, the traveller hasn't actually reached the destination because they are stranded (breach of contract).

....?

The basics are that a traveller has contracted a company to get them from A to B with a clause that if they are late they will be compensated for the delay, regardless of your opinion or how you feel about it.

 

[blacknight]

Of course - which is why the TOC will ask for both ticket and taxi receipt.

The TOC will (if necessary and justified) pay for the taxi, and, if the taxi gets you in late in any case, still provide compensation for the delay.

You don't forfeit rights to compensation just because the train was late and the TOC put on a taxi for you. You were still inconvenienced, so compensation is payable.

Are you telling us what the industry position is (in which case you are wrong), or what your opinion is?

So you are saying you are quite happy to pay for your own taxi home on the night then submit a claim for both taxi & any delay in your journey. Not knowing for sure that TOC will accept you claim for a taxi which could leave you out of pocket for weeks.
Look at this as railway version of Deal or No Deal I am prepared to pay for your taxi home tonight no cost to you what so ever if you are prepared to surrender your ticket. Deal or No Deal
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry to say that is incomprehensible.

If typing out your reasoning is hard, could you simply post links to the relevant Regulation?

As I belong to a generation that phrase cut & paste referred to wall paper I can only quote so Condition of Carrige Passengers Section1 A Tickets states

1 Your Contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you & each Train Company whose trains you have right to use.
So for example a through ticket Stevenage to Spalding your contract is with EC FCC & EMT.
But if you split journey
Stevenage-Peterborough your contract is with EC FCC
Peterborough-Spalding your contract is with EMT
Might be allowed 2 tickets to complete one journey but as split ticket results in 2 contracts where have you contracted either EC or FCC to get you beyond Peterborough?

 

[Deerfold]

So you are saying you are quite happy to pay for your own taxi home on the night then submit a claim for both taxi & any delay in your journey. Not knowing for sure that TOC will accept you claim for a taxi which could leave you out of pocket for weeks.
Look at this as railway version of Deal or No Deal I am prepared to pay for your taxi home tonight no cost to you what so ever if you are prepared to surrender your ticket. Deal or No Deal
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As I belong to a generation that phrase cut & paste referred to wall paper I can only quote so Condition of Carrige Passengers Section1 A Tickets

1 Your Contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you & each Train Company whose trains you have right to use.
So through ticket Stevenage to Spalding your contract is with EC FCC & EMT.
But if you split journey
Stevenage-Peterborough your contract is with EC FCC
Peterborough-Spalding your contract is with EMT
Might be allowed 2 tickets to complete one journey but as split ticket results in 2 contracts where have contracted either EC or FCC to get you beyond Peterborough?

As ever your posts are very hard to understand - it may help if you reread them before posting to check they make sense.

Your contract is actually with a company who has contracts with all the TOCS so it does not matter who you travel with (so long as it is a valid route). The operator who will have to pay is the one who operated the delayed train (they can then claim if another operator or network rail caused their train to be late).

 

[AlterEgo]

So you are saying you are quite happy to pay for your own taxi home on the night then submit a claim for both taxi & any delay in your journey. Not knowing for sure that TOC will accept you claim for a taxi which could leave you out of pocket for weeks.

Look at this as railway version of Deal or No Deal I am prepared to pay for your taxi home tonight no cost to you what so ever if you are prepared to surrender your ticket. Deal or No Deal

What on earth are you on about?

You are talking absolute nonsense.

I have made it unequivocally clear that:

A) The TOC has a duty to get you from A to B as agreed.
B) If a taxi has to form part of the journey, then so be it.
C) You can claim compensation for the delay (and inconvenience you suffered) even if a taxi forms part of that journey.
D) If you had to pay for the taxi yourself (which ought not happen), then you can claim for both taxi and delay compensation.

 

[ainsworth74]

blacknight can I also echo the request that you proof read your post and consider changing your formatting as it is very hard to follow (I would suggest putting extracts from the NRCoC in quote boxes for example to make it clear when you are quoting the NRCoC and when you are writing)?

Also can I ask you to answer yorkie's question as to whether these statements are the position of the railway or what you think/wish it to be?

 

[blacknight]

As ever your posts are very hard to understand - it may help if you reread them before posting to check they make sense.

Your contract is actually with a company who has contracts with all the TOCS so it does not matter who you travel with (so long as it is a valid route). The operator who will have to pay is the one who operated the delayed train (they can then claim if another operator or network rail caused their train to be late).

As I have quoted directly from National Terms & Conditions of Carriage, so I think any difficulty with clarity lies else where.
Intro to National Terms & Conditions of Carriage goes further stating
When you buy a ticket to travel on National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with train operating companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you the right to make journey or journeys between stations shown on the ticket you have bought
So if in example I gave of split ticket Stevenage Peterborough & Peterborough then you have contract only with EMT to get you beyond Peterborough to Spalding, for example what is to stop person buying a ticket from TVM on arrival at Peterborough & then requesting a taxi home is that right?

 

[ainsworth74]

As I have quoted directly from National Terms & Conditions of Carriage, so I think any difficulty with clarity lies else where

With the greatest respect your posts are not clear. It is not clear when you are quoting from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and when you are commenting on that quote.

I would also again ask you to answer yorkie's question as posed here:

Again, I ask, are you stating the actual position of the Railway, or your opinion of how you wish it to be?

 

[blacknight]

Of course - which is why the TOC will ask for both ticket and taxi receipt.

The TOC will (if necessary and justified) pay for the taxi, and, if the taxi gets you in late in any case, still provide compensation for the delay.

This is your post which to me suggested you were willing to pay for taxi home at your own cost & submit claim against the TOC.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is your post which to me suggested you were willing to pay for taxi home at your own cost & submit claim against the TOC.

Yes. Correct.

You can claim for the cost of a taxi (if you had to pay for it yourself, which shouldn't really happen, but does from time to time), and compensation for the delay to your journey (Scheduled arrival at destination station vs actual arrival, even if that arrival is done in a taxi).

I assume from your reluctance to say whether you're telling us fact or opinion, that you're just saying what you think is fair, rather than what the Railway's position is.

I (and several others, whose posts I know from experience I can rely on) have stated the Railway's position, which is a fact.

 

[blacknight]

With the greatest respect your posts are not clear. It is not clear when you are quoting from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and when you are commenting on that quote.

I would also again ask you to answer yorkie's question as posed here:

Is this forum turning into a McCarthy Witch Hunt All this I put to you "Have or have you not ever been a Railwayman"
In which case I will take the Fifth Ammendment & wish to neither confirm or deny that allegation. Have to go now nurse is here with my medication:-x

 

[Deerfold]

Is this forum turning into a McCarthy Witch Hunt All this I put to you "Have or have you not ever been a Railwayman"
In which case I will take the Fifth Ammendment & wish to neither confirm or deny that allegation. Have to go now nurse is here with my medication:-x

Many of us are not railwaymen here.

We generally have two kinds of dicussions here:

What *should* happen as per the current rules.

OR

What we *think* should happen.

It helps if we all know which we're having in any particular thread.

 

[bb21]

Your question has already been answered.

So if in example I gave of split ticket Stevenage Peterborough & Peterborough then you have contract only with EMT to get you beyond Peterborough to Spalding,

The Train Operating Companies are bound by a Contract with a little known but crucial Company called "Rail Settlement Plan Ltd." (you'll see the letters RSP on ticket stock). The terms of this Contract imposes the assurance of a continuity of obligations to passengers while travelling with any TOC and defines the arrangements for selling tickets for travel on each others' services etc.. It is not binding on Open Access Operators.
The RSP creates the consistency and inter-dependencies that you are looking for from a single Company.

Your contract is actually with a company who has contracts with all the TOCS so it does not matter who you travel with (so long as it is a valid route). The operator who will have to pay is the one who operated the delayed train (they can then claim if another operator or network rail caused their train to be late).

It appears that you are repeatedly expressing what you think should happen in your opinion, despite numerous people, some of whom I might add do work in a rather senior capacity in the railway industry, explaining what the actual case is. The system might be open to abuse as you suggested, however the NRCoC and the TOCs' own Passenger Charters were not written with the mindset that every passenger intends to evade his fare and extract every penny he can from the TOCs.

The questions in relation to the thread have all been answered and the matter is considered closed. The discussion is just going round and round in circles hence a decision has been made to lock the thread. If a discussion about potential abuse of the compensation system is necessary then please start a new thread.