Split Ticketing are you fully covered

[blacknight]

As result of recent thread on NXEA leave passenger stranded well almost stranded.
Is split ticketing really a Third Party option when buying tickets if you want to be fully covered should your best option be to buy a through ticket, what the risks of travelling on Split Ticket.
If you Split & payless should you be entitled to same cover as those passengers that have paid more for a through ticket.
As BR nolonger exists have you entered in to a single contract or separate contracts with each TOC

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course you're fully covered. Condition 19 of the NRCoC (which all TOCs are required to abide by as part of the franchise agreement) states that:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10). If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

The key phrase being:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey

To my mind this clearly shows that you can combine two or more tickets for one journey and so if there is a problem you should be treated in exactly the same way as you would if you had one through ticket for the journey.

In the past some staff seemed to think that this did not apply to Advance tickets however the Advance FAQs in The Manual state that:

Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.

Note 1. Where a passenger buys multiple tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2. Where multiple train companies are used A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through journey in the event of delays provided they were booked in accordance with the minimum connectiion times for the station. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge-Peterborough 'XC only' and Peterbourgh-Leeds 'EC only' is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of delay on the Cross Country service causing the connection to be missed.

Again I think that's pretty clear in that if you hold two advances and split then you will be treated in exactly the same way as if you held a through ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

As BR nolonger exists have you entered in to a single contract or separate contracts with each TOC

That's easy to answer:

When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use.

The NRCoC describes the rights of the passenger and TOC in all cases.

The NRCoC specifically allows one journey to be made with two or more tickets (condition 19 as above). Elsewhere in the NRCoC reference is made to a journey, not "travel between the stations on your ticket" or something similar.

Whatever someone has paid is utterly irrelevant to their rights as described by the contract entered into. Besides, not everyone travelling on split tickets has paid less than they would with a through ticket.

 

[blacknight]

Thats where I see the problem with the present set National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
National Rail is not a single company like BR so in the introduction it states:-
When you buy a ticket to travel on National Rail network you enter into an agreement with train operating companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you right to make journey between stations shown on the ticket
Note word companies is the pural ie individual TOC's not a single contract with notional National Rail & agreement is to convey between stations shown on ticket.
Who then pays for the taxi/hotel if you miss last service home due to late running of inward train service?

 

[Statto]

With split tickets, make sure that the train stops at the station where the split changes over.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

With the NXEA example quoted above, could NXEA not claim that their obligation ends at London Liverpool Street? That the person is going to use a different ticket on a different TOC later on that evening is none of their concern, surely?

I think splitting tickets is a good thing for passengers, but with a "tight" connection for the last train home on an evening, I think I would pay the extra for security.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Note word companies is the pural ie individual TOC's not a single contract with notional National Rail & agreement is to convey between stations shown on ticket.

The Train Operating Companies are bound by a Contract with a little known but crucial Company called "Rail Settlement Plan Ltd." (you'll see the letters RSP on ticket stock). The terms of this Contract imposes the assurance of a continuity of obligations to passengers while travelling with any TOC and defines the arrangements for selling tickets for travel on each others' services etc.. It is not binding on Open Access Operators.
The RSP creates the consistency and inter-dependencies that you are looking for from a single Company.

 

[blacknight]

With the NXEA example quoted above, could NXEA not claim that their obligation ends at London Liverpool Street? That the person is going to use a different ticket on a different TOC later on that evening is none of their concern, surely?

Thats how I read it first AP ticket is only to Liverpool Street station which arrived late, so ticket endorsed for next service job done NXEA have finish with contract to convey passenger from Norwich to Liverpool Street station
Guess they could give delay repay form for you to complete for late running train to complete whilst waiting for next the train

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With split tickets, make sure that the train stops at the station where the split changes over.

It's not always necessary to do that, but it is the general rule.

....In the past some staff seemed to think that this did not apply to Advance tickets however the Advance FAQs in The Manual state that:....

The Advance Fares FAQs have existed for less than six months though. Before that the Conditions of the Advance fare (not the NRCoC) were in debate. The FAQs have cleared up that issue.

 

[AlterEgo]

With split tickets, make sure that the train stops at the station where the split changes over.

That's not always necessary. See condition 19 for exclusions.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Who then pays for the taxi/hotel if you miss last service home due to late running of inward train service?

I believe the general procedure is that the train company that is a position to give you immediate help pays for it, and then claims back the cost from the train company that was responsible for the delay.

 

[34D]

As result of recent thread on NXEA leave passenger stranded well almost stranded.
Is split ticketing really a Third Party option when buying tickets if you want to be fully covered should your best option be to buy a through ticket, what the risks of travelling on Split Ticket.
If you Split & payless should you be entitled to same cover as those passengers that have paid more for a through ticket.
As BR nolonger exists have you entered in to a single contract or separate contracts with each TOC

One warning I will give is using Oyster PAYG (and any future smartcard schemes elsewhere) - your onward journey requires a ticket if you want to be 'covered' - saying you plan to use oyster from kings cross to London Bridge to Erith is not sufficient as no contract exists.

 

[RJ]

I think splitting tickets is a good thing for passengers, but with a "tight" connection for the last train home on an evening, I think I would pay the extra for security.

It amazes me what risks people take then expect someone else to foot the bill when things go wrong. 43 minutes is rather flimsy considering the circumstances. Even I would never risk leaving such a low margin for farce if I was catching a long distance train which was the last of the day. I'd have been on the train before from Norwich. Personally, I feel arriving at Euston 40 minutes early is better than being stranded, but clearly not everyone agrees!

 

[bb21]

It amazes me what risks people take then expect someone else to foot the bill when things go wrong. 43 minutes is rather flimsy considering the circumstances. Even I would never risk leaving such a low margin for farce if I was catching a long distance train which was the last of the day. I'd have been on the train before from Norwich. Personally, I feel arriving at Euston 40 minutes early is better than being stranded, but clearly not everyone agrees!

A connection is either valid or not, depending on whether minimum connection time has been observed. There is no grey area. Yes, it might have been more secure to leave a bigger margin, however it is neither an obligation nor always possible. As someone else has already pointed it out in the other thread, where do you draw the line once you get into the debate about leaving a bigger margin than the minimum required.

As result of recent thread on NXEA leave passenger stranded well almost stranded.
Is split ticketing really a Third Party option when buying tickets if you want to be fully covered should your best option be to buy a through ticket, what the risks of travelling on Split Ticket.

What do you mean by "Third Party option"?

As long as the tickets cover the through journey and minimum connection times have been adhered to, the rights afforded to the passenger is no less than if a through ticket were held. Of course there might be routeing implications as the choice of routes might be restricted or expanded on a set of split tickets.

If you Split & payless should you be entitled to same cover as those passengers that have paid more for a through ticket.

Irrelevant. Fare levels and revenue distribution does not determine validity. Following your argument, should a person who paid £77.20 for a Taunton - Derby Route Bristol Off-Peak Return (Restriction 8X) have less rights than someone who paid £146.00 for an Anytime Return?

 

[RJ]

A connection is either valid or not, depending on whether minimum connection time has been observed. There is no grey area. Yes, it might have been more secure to leave a bigger margin, however it is neither an obligation nor always possible. As someone else has already pointed it out in the other thread, where do you draw the line once you get into the debate about leaving a bigger margin than the minimum required.

I'd draw it at aiming to be at the station 45 minutes prior to departure for my personal trips. I once had a 1st Advance for a 2200 service from Euston to Crewe. I live in Zone 2 but left my house at 2000. And that was with the zillion permutations of means to get to Euston. I have no issues with people excercising their rights, but have no sympathy for people who only see the price, put no common sense into whether it's a good plan or not then *think* they're owed the world when they get delayed by a few minutes. At the very least, if you're going to be smart about doing things then you need to ensure all bases are covered first, not unjustly hound the first person in a uniform for a hotel when a bad plan falls apart.

Check the minimum time first, get an NRE printout, cover yourself would seem the common sense thing to do.

I never buy a through ticket for a long journey - I use the cheapest splitting combinations possible. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that I fully check my rights first.

 

[yorkie]

If you Split & payless should you be entitled to same cover as those passengers that have paid more for a through ticket.

Is that a question?

The official answer is of course "Yes", but the amount paid makes no difference anyway. I could ask "what if you split and pay more?" or "what if a through ticket isn't available?" or "What if the Train Company encouraged the passenger to split?" (LM/Virgin have made public statements encouraging this).

Do you propose some system where a calculation is made as to whether or not the customer had to split or not, and whether they saved money, and whether the Train Company recommended it or not? If so, how would this work?

As BR nolonger exists have you entered in to a single contract or separate contracts with each TOC

An amusing suggestion, but responsibility for ticketing transferred to Rail Settlement Plan (RSP), and BRB (Residuary) Limited still exists for any responsibilities that have not been transferred to other organisations.

 

[blacknight]

Irrelevant. Fare levels and revenue distribution does not determine validity. Following your argument, should a person who paid £77.20 for a Taunton - Derby Route Bristol Off-Peak Return (Restriction 8X) have less rights than someone who paid £146.00 for an Anytime Return[/B]?

Why bring class war into debate unless you are on a sticky wicket.
Example you give providing both tickets are through tickets ain't no problem
But to turn things on its head what if for example
Passenger A was travelling on off peak through ticket from stations T-D routed via station B
whilst
Passenger B was travelling on a pair of first class split tickets T-B & B-D first train then arrives late at station B missing last service to station D which passenger is going to get taxi to station D & who is getting a delay repay form to complete & make way home at own cost.
Its not about price of ticket in all instances but if you have a through ticket or have chosen to a split option.

 

[yorkie]

Why bring class war into debate unless you are on a sticky wicket.

I don't understand this.

Example you give providing both tickets are through tickets ain't no problem

A combination of tickets ain’t no problem

But to turn things on its head what if for example
Passenger A was travelling on off peak through ticket from stations T-D routed via station B
whilst
Passenger B was travelling on a pair of first class split tickets T-B & B-D first train then arrives late at station B missing last service to station D which passenger is going to get taxi to station D & who is getting a delay repay form to complete & make way home at own cost.
Its not about price of ticket in all instances but if you have a through ticket or have chosen to a split option.

They both get taxis and can claim for their journey (for which they may use two or more tickets) under Delay Repay.

 

[blacknight]

I don't understand this.


A combination of tickets ain’t no problem
They both get taxis and can claim for their journey (for which they may use two or more tickets) under Delay Repay.

IMO wrong answer onto 2 counts
1 you cannot have alternative transport & under delay repay. Thats a bit like wanting you cake & eating it.
2 Under terms of carriage you have entered into a contract to convey you from stations as shown on ticket, you may use more than one ticket to complete your journey by rail no mention of taxis or overnight hotels.

 

[LexyBoy]

Why bring class war into debate unless you are on a sticky wicket.

Eh? Your original post brought up the idea that someone who had paid less (by buying split tickets) should have reduced rights.

Passenger A was travelling on off peak through ticket from stations T-D routed via station B
whilst
Passenger B was travelling on a pair of first class split tickets T-B & B-D first train then arrives late at station B missing last service to station D which passenger is going to get taxi to station D & who is getting a delay repay form to complete & make way home at own cost.
Its not about price of ticket in all instances but if you have a through ticket or have chosen to a split option.

OK:

- Passenger A has tickets valid for a journey from their origin T to their destination D.
- Passenger B has tickets valid for a journey from their origin T to their destination D.

The rights and responsibilities of passengers are defined by the NRCoC.

It is the passenger's responsibility to hold ticket(s) valid for their journey and to travel according to the terms of these tickets (section I, parts B and C).

- Both passengers have fulfilled these responsibilities.

Passengers rights in the event of disruption are described in NRCoC section I, part H (conditions 42 and 43).

- Both passengers are entitled to help as per condition 43, and compensation for the delay as appropriate.

---

Out of curiosity, how do you propose someone travelling on an ALR who cannot get to their planned destination due to delays should be treated? Should they just be left to deal with it themselves - after all there is no destination printed on the ticket. Several forum members have experienced this and all were found accomodation or transported to their destination IIRC.

 

[Deerfold]

IMO wrong answer onto 2 counts
1 you cannot have alternative transport & under delay repay. Thats a bit like wanting you cake & eating it.

It might be your opinion, but it's not how it works.

 

[blacknight]

IMO wrong answer onto 2 counts
1 you cannot have alternative transport & under delay repay. Thats a bit like wanting you cake & eating it.
2 Under terms of carriage you have entered into a contract to convey you from stations as shown on ticket, you may use more than one ticket to complete your journey by rail no mention of taxis or overnight hotels.

TOC operating out T-B as forefilled its contract with you & got you to your destination as shown on ticket. Late in delay replay & endorse other ticket for the next service.

 

[Deerfold]

TOC operating out T-B as forefilled its contract with you & got you to your destination as shown on ticket. Late in delay replay & endorse for next service.

Your posts really are hard to understand.

What?

 

[blacknight]

It might be your opinion, but it's not how it works.

As ticket belongs to railway & having give out a taxi proof is needed to validate use of taxi for accounts otherwise system could be open to abuse.

 

[talltim]

Your posts really are hard to understand.

What?

LOL

 

[LexyBoy]

IMO wrong answer onto 2 counts
1 you cannot have alternative transport & under delay repay. Thats a bit like wanting you cake & eating it.

Compensation for a delay and the responsibility of the TOC not to leave the passenger stranded are separate issues and in no way mutually exclusive.

 

[Deerfold]

As ticket belongs to railway & having give out a taxi proof is needed to validate use of taxi for accounts otherwise system could be open to abuse.

Nope, still not getting it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

TOC operating out T-B as forefilled its contract with you & got you to your destination as shown on ticket. Late in delay replay & endorse other ticket for the next service.

I'm sorry to say that is incomprehensible.

If typing out your reasoning is hard, could you simply post links to the relevant Regulation?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As ticket belongs to railway & having give out a taxi proof is needed to validate use of taxi for accounts otherwise system could be open to abuse.

The NRCoC states that if you wish to claim compensation the train company will allow you to keep your ticket for that purpose.

 

[Platform 1]

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire​

journey and one of the following applies:

Two tickets, one journey

7. Train Company’s responsibilities
The Train Company whose trains you have the right to use, or who has agreed to provide
you with any other goods or services, is responsible for providing the goods or services it
has agreed to provide. However, the Train Company or its agent(s) are not responsible for:
(a) another Train Company not running any trains;
(b) another person not providing goods or services;
(c) any losses that occur while you are travelling on any other Train
Company’s trains;
(d) any losses that occur while you are using those other goods or services.
However, each Train Company or its agent(s) will help you if you have a claim
(see Condition 63) or a complaint about your journey, either by dealing with the matter
itself or by passing it on to the Train Company(s) or other person(s)​

providing the goods or services in question.

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,​

either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train
Company’s control include:
(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;
(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;
(c) gas leaks or fires in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company or any of their employees or agents;
(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;
(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;
(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents
or by any other person;
(g) riots or civil commotion; and
(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a
Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a​

result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).

Signalling problem

59. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these​

Conditions.

Unfortunately, in this case (,as 45 applies), I don't think he's covered but if the delay were caused by something else (in the company's control), one would be.