Split Season Ticket

[mboz62]

I think this is right! But I'm hoping someone can just clarify my logic for me. – and also help those like me who have spent the last hour googling for a simple answer!

I am about to buy a season ticket from Stoke-on-Trent to London (plus zones 1-6)
It is cheaper to buy two season tickets, one from Stoke-on-Trent to Rugby, and another from Rugby to London(1-6)

However, according to Rule 19 of the conditions of carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket is not.​

(slightly edited for clarity/brevity)

Now the morning train stops at Rugby, so I'm thinking that condition b is applied, and hence condition c is irrelevant.

Does this sound likely? I've checked with national rail but it was the usual indian call centre, who said it was ok, but I'm slightly dubious as to whether he knew exactly what I meant!

As an secondary question, it is considerably cheaper to get a ticket from Stoke to Rugby, then from either Long Buckby, or Wolverton to London, but I got rather confused trying to decipher the routeing guide on this one.
They are both part of the Rugby routeing group (so I'm presuming I could 'join' at Rugby), but the fare check rule rather perplexed me.

Also I'm unsure as to whether Wolverton would be foul of the doubling back rule (though I read that's allowed on the same routeing group as an interchange – though I wasn’t sure what that meant!)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You only have to meet one of the three options in condition 19, so provided you use trains that stop at Rugby you are fine with that combination.

Long Buckby and Wolverton have two routeing points, Rugby and Northampton, so we use the fares check rule to identify appropriate routeing points.

The fare from Rubgy is more than from both Long Buckby and Wolverton and so Rugby is not an appropriate routeing point. Northampton has a lower fare and is therefore appropriate. The route you entitled to take is the shortest to the origin routeing point (Northampton) and a mapped route to the destination routeing point (London) without doubling back (excepting for group stations on the route).

You cannot double back within a group if the origin or destination station is within that group.

Therefore a ticket from Long Buckby or Wolverton would not cover your entire journey.

 

[John @ home]

the morning train stops at Rugby, so I'm thinking that condition b is applied, and hence condition c is irrelevant.

I agree that split tickets are valid on trains that stop at Rugby, but you would also have to choose these trains for travel in the opposite direction. That limits journey opportunities very considerably.

I agree with hairyhandedfool that neither Wolverton - London nor Long Buckby - London are valid via Rugby.

 

[mboz62]

Actually this was the conclusion I came up with after much hair pulling! (do they make the routeing guide intentionally cryptic!) it is good to have it confirmed so at least I know I worked it out vaguely right!

Thank you greatly for your time, it is much appreciated.

 

[stfletch]

Hi everyone,

First time poster here and I was just wondering if anyone could help me out. I was going to start a new thread but my query is pretty similar to the one stated by the OP.

You'll have to bear with me as this is a fairly complex question though!

I currently commute between Stourbridge Junction and Milton Keynes. I know the cheapest way to do this would be to buy a London Midland only season ticket between these two stations. (The monthly one costs £292.70).

However, I prefer to catch the London Euston Virgin Serive as it cuts down on my commute time considerably. The cheapest way I have found to do this that I know is definitely valid is to buy a Direct Debit Zone 1-5 ntrain pass that takes me as far as Coventry and the buy an all route season pass between Coventry and Milton Keynes. Which works out at £57.70 + £315.70 = £373.40 a month.

This split works because the Virgin trains from Brimngham to London via Milton Keynes all stop at Coventry too, so I satisfy condition (b) of rule 19 of the conditions of carriage.

However, looking at rule 19 a little more closely I wonder if I can make a further saving by splitting the ticket at Rugby.

In this case I use the ntrain "out of county" add on to get me to Rugby and then buy a season ticket between Rugby and Milton Keynes. This would be at a cost of £109.00 + £222.80 = £331.80

Now the Virgin trains that stop at Milton Keynes do not stop at Rugby so I initially though this was not a valid split. However, it occurs to me that condition (c) may actually apply since the Rugby - Milton Keynes classes as a Season ticket but apparently the ntrain ticket may not for the case of this condition because it comes in the category of "travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive". Which according to rule 19 does NOT count as a season ticket in this purpose.

Of course I realise this probably doesn't work because the ntrain ticket probably still classes as a season ticket as far as "not being a season ticket" but just doesn't apply as being a season ticket if this was your ONLY season ticket (and the other ticket was just a single journey).

However, if someone could clarify this one way or the other I would be very grateful, as £40 a month is certainly a worthwile saving.

Incidentally it would be even cheaper for me to split the ticket at Northampton but I am pretty sure I can't do this even if condition (c) does apply since its not on the main Virgin Line.

Many thanks in advance for any help on this rather long query!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just a quick bump, as I still haven't been able to confirm this either way.

Thanks again.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not familiar with the ntrain tickets, but I'd be suprised if they are not PTE products and therefore I'd say it is allowed.

 

[OwlMan]

I am about to buy a season ticket from Stoke-on-Trent to London (plus zones 1-6)
It is cheaper to buy two season tickets, one from Stoke-on-Trent to Rugby, and another from Rugby to London(1-6)

Stoke On Trent - London 1-6 Monthly £947-00

Stoke On Trent to Rugby £389-80
Rugby - London 1-6 (Any Permitted) £676-30
Total £1066-10

Splitting does not seem cheaper to me


Peter

 

[Ferret]

I'm not familiar with the ntrain tickets, but I'd be suprised if they are not PTE products and therefore I'd say it is allowed.

Ntrain tickets are PTE products I've accepted similar combinations under Condition 19 as I can't see any condition on the Ntrain tickets that prevent use in this way - and as far as I can see that's the only thing that could render it invalid.

 

[stfletch]

I'm not familiar with the ntrain tickets, but I'd be suprised if they are not PTE products and therefore I'd say it is allowed.

Ntrain tickets are PTE products I've accepted similar combinations under Condition 19 as I can't see any condition on the Ntrain tickets that prevent use in this way - and as far as I can see that's the only thing that could render it invalid.

That's great! Thanks to both of you for your input.

 

[yorkie]

I think it's valid, but be prepared to argue your case. If a guard insists on charging you, then you may wish to consider not paying any money and instead give your details for an Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN) to be issued instead. Then contact us ASAP for advice/assistance in wording a suitable letter.

Incidentally it would be even cheaper for me to split the ticket at Northampton but I am pretty sure I can't do this even if condition (c) does apply since its not on the main Virgin Line.

Interestingly this cropped up in another thread just now, it's a completely different line as far as I'm concerned, and I suspect Virgin would think the same! The line that avoids Northampton is the West Coast Main Line and is used by the vast majority of Virgin services, there are very few that call at, or go via, Northampton. I accept that for shorter deviations it may be valid, the question of 'where you draw the line' may not be easy to answer, but in this particular case I don't think anyone would be sympathetic to a split at Northampton on a train that doesn't go within 4 miles of Northampton!

 

[Old Timer]

....Now the Virgin trains that stop at Milton Keynes do not stop at Rugby so I initially though this was not a valid split. However, it occurs to me that condition (c) may actually apply since the Rugby - Milton Keynes classes as a Season ticket but apparently the ntrain ticket may not for the case of this condition because it comes in the category of "travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive". Which according to rule 19 does NOT count as a season ticket in this purpose.

Of course I realise this probably doesn't work because the ntrain ticket probably still classes as a season ticket as far as "not being a season ticket" but just doesn't apply as being a season ticket if this was your ONLY season ticket (and the other ticket was just a single journey).

Clause 19

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

my highlighting.

(a) does not apply
(b) does not apply
(c) EXCLUDES Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes exactly - if the PTE ticket was not excluded from the definition of a season, then both tickets would be seasons and section (c) would not apply. But since it is excluded then there is only one season ticket in the combination, and section (c) does apply.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes exactly - if the PTE ticket was not excluded from the definition of a season, then both tickets would be seasons and section (c) would not apply. But since it is excluded then there is only one season ticket in the combination, and section (c) does apply.

No sorry. You are using a Season Ticket as the base for an extension and then adding on another season ticket. That is NOT allowed.

There are three tickets in the scenario, two season tickets and an add on which is valid only with with one of the season tickets.

 

[clagmonster]

In the scenario, there is:
1) a normal BR season.
2) the West Mids PTE season. Condition 19 states: "which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority", so for the purpose of split ticketing this isn't a season (yes, I know it sounds bizare).

Therefore, I think that the two are valid as a split, whether the train calls at the split point or not.

 

[Old Timer]

In the scenario, there is:
1) a normal BR season.
2) the West Mids PTE season. Condition 19 states: "which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority", so for the purpose of split ticketing this isn't a season (yes, I know it sounds bizare).

Therefore, I think that the two are valid as a split, whether the train calls at the split point or not.

In which case (c) cannot apply, and (a) cannot apply, therefore (b) must apply.

(c) is to allow an extension to a season ticket for one-off uses, such as going home for the weekend.

If you want to use two seasons then the train MUST stop. To attempt to use two season tickets for the purpose of a single journey on a non-stop train is not allowed and never has been.

 

[clagmonster]

I agree that on a non-stop train, (b) can't possibly apply and that as the Rugby-Milton Keynes ticket is not zonal (a) can't possibly apply.
Now, onto (c). For this purpose, one of the tickets is a season ticket (Rugby-Milton Keynes) and the other ticket is not (the West Mid PTE ticket, as for this purpose season tickets do not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive). Therefore, as far as I can see (c) applies.

I suspect that allowing this quite specific case is a fairly new thing, and that one-off extensions were the original intention, but we have to go on the current wording of the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[yorkie]

The historical info is useful but doesn't have any bearing on validity.

There are no restrictions on frequency of use, ie one-off uses.

I agree for two seasons the train must call, but if one of the seasons is a PTE product then that doesn't apply.

However when combining 3 or more tickets, it can get messy and complicated. If the question is, can you combine a non-season to Coventry, then a season to Rugby then a season from Rugby, then the train must call at Rugby in my interpretation of the rules, for this to be valid.

 

[Old Timer]

The historical info is useful but doesn't have any bearing on validity.

There are no restrictions on frequency of use, ie one-off uses.

I agree for two seasons the train must call, but if one of the seasons is a PTE product then that doesn't apply.....

Sorry old chap but I disagree. My reading of (c) is that it excludes a PTE ticket and thus (c) cannot be valid.

For (c) to apply ONE of the tickets MUST be a season (but not a PTE ticket).

Am I missing something here ?

 

[yorkie]

OT - What tickets exactly are we talking about? I don't think we are disagreeing on validity.

 

[Old Timer]

OT - What tickets exactly are we talking about? I don't think we are disagreeing on validity.

Oh apologies, my misunderstanding ?

 

[clagmonster]

I think we are reading it slightly differently.
I agree that exactly one of the tickets must be a season.
Then we agree that the remaining tickets must not be seasons. However, this is where I think we disagree, for these purposes, a season issued by or on behalf of a PTE is not a season. Therefore, PTE tickets count towards the non-season 'quota' for splitting purposes, thus keeping the season 'quota' at one.
For me, it is the placing of the brackets that does it. The exclusion, in brackets, of PTE seasons is placed immediately after the phrase 'one of the tickets is a Season Ticket' thus excluding the PTE seasons from being seasons, not from clause (c) completely as I think you are interpreting it.

 

[stfletch]

Sorry old chap but I disagree. My reading of (c) is that it excludes a PTE ticket and thus (c) cannot be valid.

For (c) to apply ONE of the tickets MUST be a season (but not a PTE ticket).

Am I missing something here ?

Wow, things really do get complicated. After reading this thread I now feel like I will be abusing the system even if it IS allowable. Mind you my personal opinion is that the entire fare system should be revamped so split ticketing isn't even needed! (i.e it should never be cheaper to buy two seperate tickets along the route for the same journey thatn it is to but the single ticket).

Anyway back on point, you say "For (c) to apply ONE of the tickets MUST be a season (but not a PTE ticket)."

Well, the Rugby-to-Milton Keynes counts as the season ticket (I would get a monthly one of these). The ntrain West Midlands pass with Rugby add on would be a PTE product and hence, from the wording in 19c is NOT a season ticket. So by that consideration I have ONE season ticket and a pass that doesn't class as a season ticket. Hence (c) applies.

Incidentally, I think it's pushing things too much if I split at Northampton, so I definitely won't be doing that.

 

[yorkie]

Well, the Rugby-to-Milton Keynes counts as the season ticket (I would get a monthly one of these). The ntrain West Midlands pass with Rugby add on would be a PTE product and hence, from the wording in 19c is NOT a season ticket. So by that consideration I have ONE season ticket and a pass that doesn't class as a season ticket. Hence (c) applies.

Incidentally, I think it's pushing things too much if I split at Northampton, so I definitely won't be doing that.

I don't think Old Timer was disagreeing your current arrangements are valid, but that a further split (whether it is at Rugby or - even more unreasonably - at Northampton) would not be valid.

Apologies to OT if I have that wrong. But, If I have that correct, then I don't think that any of us are disagreeing at all.

However it's such a complex subject and several suggestions have been banded about that we've all got a bit muddled as to who is arguing for/against what!

 

[Old Timer]

However it's such a complex subject and several suggestions have been banded about that we've all got a bit muddled as to who is arguing for/against what!

Dead right, old chap.

And I get muddled these days easier than before !

The sooner we return to mileage based charging the better !

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However when combining 3 or more tickets, it can get messy and complicated. If the question is, can you combine a non-season to Coventry, then a season to Rugby then a season from Rugby, then the train must call at Rugby in my interpretation of the rules, for this to be valid....

With three tickets it shouldn't be complex at all, by the book. The tickets must be valid for the entire journey and one of the options must apply. If two are seasons (c) doesn't apply, in your example a maximum of one is zonal, so the train must stop at Rugby and Coventry.

However, could we suppose that the journey is intended as only to Rugby and then a seperate 'journey' onward from there? How does this fit into our definition of 'journey'? Can we make two or more journeys without leaving the train?

 

[stfletch]

With three tickets it shouldn't be complex at all, by the book. The tickets must be valid for the entire journey and one of the options must apply. If two are seasons (c) doesn't apply, in your example a maximum of one is zonal, so the train must stop at Rugby and Coventry.

However, could we suppose that the journey is intended as only to Rugby and then a seperate 'journey' onward from there? How does this fit into our definition of 'journey'? Can we make two or more journeys without leaving the train?

OK, now I am confused again. I am not sure where the three tickets bit comes from, at least in relation to my own circumstances.

I am hoping to buy a ntrain all zone pass with an out-of-county extension to Rugby (see this link to the actual product page: http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/directdebit/ntrainooc.aspx)

My understanding is that this will just be as single pass the whole of which will class as a PTE product and hence by (c) not a season ticket. The Ruby-Milton Keynes would then be my season ticket and so condition (c) is met.

However, perhaps I am wrong, would the ntrain pass perhaps count as 2 tickets? The west-midlands county part and then another season ticket part between Coverntry and Rugby? The seems unwieldly to me but if this is how it works then condition (c) might not apply?

*sighs* Mileage based tickets really would be SO much simpler.

 

[LexyBoy]

OK, now I am confused again. I am not sure where the three tickets bit comes from, at least in relation to my own circumstances.

AIUI - HHF was replying to a post of yorkie’s which in turn came about because Old Timer was considering your ntrain ticket as having 2 sepearate parts, which I think we’re all happy that it isn’t. Threads tend not to stay on topic for long round here

However, perhaps I am wrong, would the ntrain pass perhaps count as 2 tickets? The west-midlands county part and then another season ticket part between Coverntry and Rugby? The seems unwieldly to me but if this is how it works then condition (c) might not apply?

I think everyone’s agreed that it is one ticket and the combination is valid (via Rugby, not Northampton).

*sighs* Mileage based tickets really would be SO much simpler.

And much more expensive!

 

[Ferret]

The PTE/non-PTE combo is valid unless a specific condition of either ticket prohibits use in this way. So, a WYPTE in combo with a Micklefield-York ticket is not valid for Leeds-York non-stop as there is a specific condition attached to the WYPTE pass preventing it being used in this way. The West Midlands one has no such condition, and that combination is therefore valid!

 

[stfletch]

Many thanks to both of you (and indeed all in this thread), for clearing that up for me.

 

[spasmj]

The PTE/non-PTE combo is valid unless a specific condition of either ticket prohibits use in this way. So, a WYPTE in combo with a Micklefield-York ticket is not valid for Leeds-York non-stop as there is a specific condition attached to the WYPTE pass preventing it being used in this way. The West Midlands one has no such condition, and that combination is therefore valid!

Have you got a link for that WYPTE condition? All I can find is the condition below which seems to allow these sort of combinations:

Where a passenger holds two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, then the train does not need to call at the station where they change from one to the other. (Please note that these combinations of tickets do not apply to non-stopping trains operated by Virgin, GNER and Midland Mainline)

Source: http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/MetroCards/6-WhenYouCanUseYourMetroCard.htm