Speed restrictions as the heatwave arrives

[Darandio]

You are on the money - the conditions for rails in Britain are by no means extreme

Of course it is extreme, it very rarely gets this hot.

Your long winded comparison with Australia isn't really relevant.

 

[Saint66]

NR tweeting showing two images of the buckling which occurred yesterday:

https://twitter.com/networkrailPR/status/616186396747911168

 

[misterredmist]

Unfortunately , our railway system is always playing "catch-up" and never ahead of the game , flawed though it is , if we really wanted everything upgraded with all bells and whistles to cope with all conditions :

1. Would we have the capability ? 2. Would we want to pay for it ?

 

[tsr]

For the second day in a row, the Quarry Line (Stoats Nest Jn-Earlswood N Jn) is having intermittent problems. I'm not sure if today's issues are due to heat, but there were speed restrictions on the route yesterday.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's extreme for the UK. The temperature today is expected to be the highest for a decade. Some rail temperatures were already over 50 yesterday, and will get higher today.

I believe most rails in the UK are stressed for 27C. Of course, low temperatures will stress them, but cold causes contraction rather than expansion, thus having no buckling effect. However, contraction stress can lead to fractures on occasion.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reading the various route speed restrictions, why is VTEC affected between King's Cross and Leeds, but not VTWC?
And how is LM affected by speed restrictions but not, apparently, VTWC?
Are there technical reasons for the WCML being affected less than the ECML (though there are "overhead line problems")?
Or is it just the different TOC PR systems treating the problem differently?
Chiltern also seems to be completely unaffected.

 

[Dave1987]

Those comparing our railways with continental Europe are really comparing apples and oranges. For starters, their railways are run as a public service rather than to line pockets of shareholders, ergo, they are considerably more safer and well-designed to cope with all weather conditions.

Wow that's one hell of a statement to make! Considering the huge train crashes that have happened in France and Spain! By the way National Express have just won the contract to run trains in Germany.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wow that's one hell of a statement to make! Considering the huge train crashes that have happened in France and Spain! By the way National Express have just won the contract to run trains in Germany.

And the public sector DfT/ST own and control all the passenger services in GB, regulated by public sector ORR and RSSB, and operated by public sector NR.
Nothing moves except under a public sector contract.

 

[GatwickDepress]

You are on the money - the conditions for rails in Britain are by no means extreme, and rail-related problems kicking in when the temperature is only in the low 30s should be regarded as unacceptable.


I live in South Australia, one of those other places where the conditions for the rails are much tougher. After a lengthy period of track rebuilding, our suburban network is now at the point where we don't get rail-related disruption even when the maximum temperature is into the mid 40s. When things do start going wrong, in general the problems we do get are equipment failures rather than issues with the rails.

In addition to those high air temperatures, the rails are getting heated from above by intense sunlight which is far more direct than anywhere in Britain would ever experience (hot temperatures in Britain are caused by pockets of warm air, not by the sun) and they still need to be rated down to -10 degrees for the winter minimum temperatures which can be very cold in certain parts of the Outback (the surface of a desert radiates away its heat much faster than the ground in a maritime-dominated climate like Britain). Rails will heat and cool by over 50 degrees in a single day out there.

It would seem that the British need to look at adjusting their use of CWR to account for a slightly higher range of temperatures. If they can get it to the same sort of range as Australian tracks which work with slightly milder minimums and significantly hotter maximums, it should then be as simple as getting the neutral temperature right during installation.

I'd sure like to see the Australian railway system cope when it snows!

Oh... wait...

 

[meridian2]

Of course it is extreme, it very rarely gets this hot.

Your long winded comparison with Australia isn't really relevant.

Agreed, but this is going to be the norm for the future and the only way trhe railways know how to adapt is to impose further speed restrictions.

I place the blame fairly and squarely at our inept DFT, who seem, year after year, to erode our railways, pump more money into vanity projects like HS2, and invest little for the future.

 

[EM2]

Those comparing our railways with continental Europe are really comparing apples and oranges. For starters, their railways are run as a public service rather than to line pockets of shareholders, ergo, they are considerably more safer and well-designed to cope with all weather conditions.

Of course they are:
Storms in Germany - http://www.thelocal.de/20150331/storm-shuts-down-nrw-train-lines

Regional trains have been cancelled in North Rhine-Westphalia since 11 am, while Lower Saxony and Bavaria have seen rail service completely wiped out on Tuesday afternoon.

Heat in France - http://www.connexionfrance.com/Heatwave-pollution-Paris-ozone-14890-view-article.html

Train have also been asked to cut their speed. The RFF, which is responsible for the tracks across France, has asked SNCF to reduce speeds because of the heat expanding the rails and affecting overhead cables. Trains in Ile-de-France, Picardie and Pays de la Loire are affected, with TGVs yesterday limited to 240kph from 300kph and TERs and RER trains reduced to 40kph. - See more at: http://www.connexionfrance.com/Heat...-14890-view-article.html#sthash.8rfJ2Stx.dpuf

 

[TDK]

You are on the money - the conditions for rails in Britain are by no means extreme, and rail-related problems kicking in when the temperature is only in the low 30s should be regarded as unacceptable.

To assess this surely you need to take the average amount of days in the UK over 30C and see if it is cost effective to manage the cost for catering for it. The same happened with the snow and the airports a couple of years back - the question was "why do Canada< Sweden, Norway etc cope? Well they have many days with snow so can assess the cost of having snow ploughs at the ready. In the South East we went 8 years without any significant snow and to manage all those ploughs every winter would not be cost effective in relation to the risk. I am only assuming this is how the risk assessments are handles on the British Rail Network.

 

[Deepgreen]

Of course they are:
Storms in Germany - http://www.thelocal.de/20150331/storm-shuts-down-nrw-train-lines


Heat in France - http://www.connexionfrance.com/Heatwave-pollution-Paris-ozone-14890-view-article.html

Yes, I'd feel comfortable crashing at 240kph, but not 300!

 

[infobleep]

Reading the various route speed restrictions, why is VTEC affected between King's Cross and Leeds, but not VTWC?
And how is LM affected by speed restrictions but not, apparently, VTWC?
Are there technical reasons for the WCML being affected less than the ECML (though there are "overhead line problems")?
Or is it just the different TOC PR systems treating the problem differently?
Chiltern also seems to be completely unaffected.

That's an interesting question. Does anyone know the answer?

I've suffered minor delays over last couple of days but I don't think were due to speed restrictions. One was due to an earlier broken down train.

 

[DarloRich]

my word it appears this thread has been infected by the sort of rubbish printed by the Standard. it must be contagious.........

I think some people need read up on how stressing and rail head temps work!

Indeed AND the concept of CWR!

This will do as a starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_stressing

 

[civ-eng-jim]

That's an interesting question. Does anyone know the answer?.

I don't know for sure, but West Coast has been renewed more recently compared to the ECML - Newer sleepers (G44s) are heavier than older sleepers (F40s, F27s), spacing of sleepers is 650mm rather than 710mm, newer cleaner ballast, heaped ballast shoulders, stiffer and heavier rail section (CEN60 rather than CEN56) all add up to a greater lateral resistance to buckling.

 

[Deepgreen]

For the second day in a row, the Quarry Line (Stoats Nest Jn-Earlswood N Jn) is having intermittent problems. I'm not sure if today's issues are due to heat, but there were speed restrictions on the route yesterday.

Yesterday the problem was on the Redhill line (SB-only power supply problem at Couldson South) - were there Quarry line problems as well?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NR tweeting showing two images of the buckling which occurred yesterday:

https://twitter.com/networkrailPR/status/616186396747911168

Very surprised to see a buckled third rail, as they are generally in relatively short lengths and not secured in anything like the same way as running rails. I would have thought that they had the freedom of movement to make buckling almost impossible.

 

[amateur]

i love the twitter feeds on the TOC twitter accounts which remind people to carry a bottle of water with them when travelling. thanks for stating the bloody obvious!

 

[HH]

i love the twitter feeds on the TOC twitter accounts which remind people to carry a bottle of water with them when travelling. thanks for stating the bloody obvious!

When all the toilets are out of action, will you rue drinking all that water?

 

[Saint66]

i love the twitter feeds on the TOC twitter accounts which remind people to carry a bottle of water with them when travelling. thanks for stating the bloody obvious!

This is the general public you're talking about... We're not the brightest bunch.

Edit: 36.2c reached at Heathrow...

 

[Dave1987]

i love the twitter feeds on the TOC twitter accounts which remind people to carry a bottle of water with them when travelling. thanks for stating the bloody obvious!

Well you say that but some people are incredibly stupid. I'm still trying to find where the signs are that tells people to switch off their brain and common sense when they enter a railway station. It must be there somewhere! I've seen people jump barriers at stations where one side of the station is closed and clear signs stating this only for them to say they didn't realise when challenged, even though they have jumped the bloody barrier.

 

[EM2]

i love the twitter feeds on the TOC twitter accounts which remind people to carry a bottle of water with them when travelling. thanks for stating the bloody obvious!

The amount of First Aid calls we get for people who pass out or faint, and it transpires that they simply haven't eaten or drunk anything, would lead me to suggest that plenty of people are not aware of the bloody obvious.

 

[carriageline]

If it's that obvious, then why do people forget to do it, and subsequently fall ill and cause horrendous delays? Subsequently it's not that obvious, and the sheep need reminding

 

[howittpie]

The guard on the 12.47 Beeston to Birmingham train was handing out bottles of water due the non functioning air con.

 

[DownSouth]

If it's that obvious, then why do people forget to do it, and subsequently fall ill and cause horrendous delays? Subsequently it's not that obvious, and the sheep need reminding

The reason it is not obvious is because it is not instinctive.

Once you are dehydrated, you stop feeling thirsty (because your body starts shutting down functions to conserve the fluids it does have - starting with the GI tract) even though it's the time you need to drink the most.

 

[Boodiggy]

I don't know for sure, but West Coast has been renewed more recently compared to the ECML - Newer sleepers (G44s) are heavier than older sleepers (F40s, F27s), spacing of sleepers is 650mm rather than 710mm, newer cleaner ballast, heaped ballast shoulders, stiffer and heavier rail section (CEN60 rather than CEN56) all add up to a greater lateral resistance to buckling.

Most renewals are to those specs these days but what you need to realise is most buckles are caused by ballast disturbance. It is not just a case of rails getting hot and buckling. Most heat related speed restrictions will be imposed at sites where ballast has been recently disturbed or the rail has inadequate stress. Also G44 sleepers use fastclips that have a higher toe load than pandol 401 clips or e1809 (eclips) that are used on older sleepers which means there is more resistance to expansion and contraction.
Every section of track will have a CRT (Critical Rail Temperature) and there are many factors that reduce this. An undisturbed site on concrete sleepers will hold up in the heat far better than track on wood sleepers etc. Also if a section of track is not stressed to the required temperature then this will effect the CRT. Low ballast has a very negative effect on CRT. For jointed track it is slightly different but again if a site has joints regulated properly it will have a much higher CRT than a site where the expansion joints are incorrectly set.

It is not just simply a bit of sun expanding rail and buckling it.

 

[meridian2]

The amount of First Aid calls we get for people who pass out or faint, and it transpires that they simply haven't eaten or drunk anything, would lead me to suggest that plenty of people are not aware of the bloody obvious.

What, like NR were aware of the heatwave forecast days in advance yet all they could come up with was this contingency plan of speed restrictions?

 

[EM2]

What, like NR were aware of the heatwave forecast days in advance yet all they could come up with was this contingency plan of speed restrictions?

Sorry, I was unaware that you were an expert in Permanent Way Engineering. What should they have done instead then?

 

[Saint66]

What, like NR were aware of the heatwave forecast days in advance yet all they could come up with was this contingency plan of speed restrictions?

What else were they suppose to do? Apply factor 50 sun block to every piece of track in the UK?

 

[SWT_USER]

Two days in a row and a total lack of information from FGW at Paddington. Journey check indicates no problems yet there are delays and cancellations all over the place. There is no point in the journey check website if they don't update it.