Speed limits

[Zoe]

any higher-speed running wouldn't necessarily involve passenger trains

I wasn't actually thinking about passenger trains, freight is a more likely possibility.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I can't see any need for external verfication of the GCR's staff. The Moors just had to put a sufficiently rigid CMS in place, with length of time in grade without problems. being used to demonstrate suitability, rather than psychometric testing.

Which arguably is a better way of testing people - when they're actually doing the job!

Let's remember, it will have been a tough route to become a driver in the first place.

 

[Tomnick]

I'd be surprised if any commercial freight ran at significantly greater speeds than at present, if only from the point of view of looking after the p-way. However, as I said, the signalling's good for 60mph and certain non-passenger trains already run above 25mph, so I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to commercial freight traffic, even if it came with restrictions.

 

[mossend]

Utter bollox! Action can, and does, be taken against railways who exceed 25m.p.h. HMRI regularly come to railways to ride with a GPS set.

action can and is taken! you mean?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

action can and is taken! you mean?

Yes, that is what I mean!

 

[wce]

I think under current legislation there is no such thing as a 25mph limit on preservered railways rather the limit is determined on inspection by the Responsable person however no one has ever signed a railway off above 25. This came into force with the changes brought about by doing away with the railway inspectorate as the people who passed a new section of line not sure how it worked with existing lines though.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think under current legislation there is no such thing as a 25mph limit on preservered railways rather the limit is determined on inspection by the Responsable person however no one has ever signed a railway off above 25. This came into force with the changes brought about by doing away with the railway inspectorate as the people who passed a new section of line not sure how it worked with existing lines though.

A Light Railway Order limits passenger speeds to 25mph, IIRC.

 

[Spagnoletti]

A Light Railway Order limits passenger speeds to 25mph, IIRC.

Am I right in thinking the existing heritage outfits in the UK all came into being under an LRO?

Under the new rules it would be a transport and works order, presumably to start on a 'new' heritage line under a TWO there would have to be a safety case, good luck getting that accepted for greater than 25mph using MkI stock etc.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Am I right in thinking the existing heritage outfits in the UK all came into being under an LRO?

Under the new rules it would be a transport and works order, presumably to start on a 'new' heritage line under a TWO there would have to be a safety case, good luck getting that accepted for greater than 25mph using MkI stock etc.

Yes, I think most HR's run under a LRO.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Then again the LROs do go back the the days when the railways using them were very ramshackle affairs, with track, stock, signalling and staff quality way behind the average heritage railway these days. Remember most heritage railways are running under similar conditions to what mainline trains did years ago, and I expect the p-way on many heritage lines is up to a considerably better standard than many NR branches. Beyond the speed restrictions most are already well exceeding what LROs were about anyway, afterall the important term is "Light" and when you look at the big HRs with express locos hauling long trains at high frequencies, there is nothing "light" about it, light trains or light use.

A true "light railway" would mostly be using light weight track, small light locos and wagons (likely unfitted), basic signalling (usually line of sight) and staffed by skilled but not exactly highly trained people.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Agreed, Chris. I'm not sure whether these things can be easily changed though?

 

[Spagnoletti]

Agreed, Chris. I'm not sure whether these things can be easily changed though?

Not strictly to do with speed limits but (quoting from memory here) Llangollen have spent in the region of £100k on legal and expert fees in preparing the TWO for the Carrog extension, that's before anything has been done on the ground.
I guess if you've got deep pockets you can afford anything but I don't see any eccentric millionaires queuing up to fund stuff like this

 

[wce]

Am I right in thinking the existing heritage outfits in the UK all came into being under an LRO?

Under the new rules it would be a transport and works order, presumably to start on a 'new' heritage line under a TWO there would have to be a safety case, good luck getting that accepted for greater than 25mph using MkI stock etc.

That was the point I was trying to make in a roundabout way

 

[ChrisCooper]

I presume TWOs are what the likes of tramways operate under? Tramways were originally under LROs and therefore limited to 25mph, and the preserved ones still are, but now speeds are much faster (even Blackpool trams get up to around 40mph on the reserved section to Fleetwood, and most are 80kph or 50mph maximum). They are operating line of sight with simple signalling, fairly lightweight and lightly maintained infrastructure, and nothing like the level of training or testing as on the railways (infact most of it comes from them needing a PCV licence, which includes things like medical standards, but HRs already have fairly tight medical standards for operating staff). Only thing trams have going for them is that they will stop pretty damned quick, although not vastly better than a train (if they stop at all, since Trams don't even need failsafe brakes, just an independant system like on road vehicles).

 

[Jonny]

I presume TWOs are what the likes of tramways operate under? Tramways were originally under LROs and therefore limited to 25mph, and the preserved ones still are, but now speeds are much faster (even Blackpool trams get up to around 40mph on the reserved section to Fleetwood, and most are 80kph or 50mph maximum). They are operating line of sight with simple signalling, fairly lightweight and lightly maintained infrastructure, and nothing like the level of training or testing as on the railways (infact most of it comes from them needing a PCV licence, which includes things like medical standards, but HRs already have fairly tight medical standards for operating staff). Only thing trams have going for them is that they will stop pretty damned quick, although not vastly better than a train (if they stop at all, since Trams don't even need failsafe brakes, just an independant system like on road vehicles).

IIRC Manchester Metrolink calls its stock "Light Rail Vehicles" as their official titles, although they are also known as trams.

Also IIRC the LRVs/Trams have "track brakes" that, as the name suggests, apply directly to the track in an emergency. That might be handy on some mainline trains for stopping in low adhesion?

 

[PinzaC55]

Ralphchadkirk said "I've just become a trainee guard, and to do that I've been platform staff since October '08, undergone pilotman, handsignalman and manual operation of electric points assessments, and done a higher training assessment where everything I've done - as well as some things I haven't (to judge common sense etc) have been assessed.

Excuse my ignorance but why would you need to be shown how to manually crank electric points as a guard?
I did 16 years as a guard on BR and under the current system and it was the absolute rule that only one one person was authorised to crank points in an emergency (not regular S&T work) and that person had to be a senior line manager.I worked at London Bridge and remember on one such occasion the Area Manager had to get his Hi-Vi on and do some serious cranking- we all regarded him as a bit of a cranker anyway so we had a laugh about it.

 

[Tomnick]

It makes sense that a sensible number of people are trained to wind points, so that you've got a better chance of someone being around should the need arise. I've certainly never heard of it being restricted to someone in high authority - as long as the Rule Book is followed, there's nothing particularly difficult or dangerous about it (and you're working to the Signalman's instructions, so don't need to 'think' too much)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What Tomnick said!

My railway are driving for a small number of traffic department staff to be trained up in those things; piloting, handsignalling etc. It means that if there is a faliure there is likely to be a person about on the platforms that is appropriately trained to get things moving

 

[PinzaC55]

What Tomnick said!

My railway are driving for a small number of traffic department staff to be trained up in those things; piloting, handsignalling etc. It means that if there is a faliure there is likely to be a person about on the platforms that is appropriately trained to get things moving

The rule about only a senior line manager being allowed to crank points on BR was for a good reason - if too many people were allowed to do it the potential for accidents increased. Signalmen were not allowed to do it and historically they were not allowed access to the interlocking room of the box for the same reason- they might be tempted to interfere with the equipment. Thats why the LMS and SR usually had locks on the block instruments, so that unauthorised persons couldn't interfere with them.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The rule about only a senior line manager being allowed to crank points on BR was for a good reason - if too many people were allowed to do it the potential for accidents increased. Signalmen were not allowed to do it and historically they were not allowed access to the interlocking room of the box for the same reason- they might be tempted to interfere with the equipment. Thats why the LMS and SR usually had locks on the block instruments, so that unauthorised persons couldn't interfere with them.

Only one person would end up doing it when it happened, but that doesn't mean many people can't be trained. The keys are kept elsewhere - I don't have a key to unlock the points machines or equipment cupboards.

 

[Zoe]

On a heritage railway, would a senior manager always be availabe should there be a need to crank points?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

On a heritage railway, would a senior manager always be availabe should there be a need to crank points?

It depends. We have duty managers (not always rostered) and On Call Managers (for incidents). Otherwise, no.

 

[PinzaC55]

I've posted a question on Signalbox.org so should be able to give a definite answer soon.
In my 16 years as a guard if anyone had asked me to hand crank points I would have refused.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On a heritage railway, would a senior manager always be availabe should there be a need to crank points?

If that was the rule , they would HAVE to be available. I was the guard on a train which had a "one under" a few years ago and since my driver was in shock a drivers manager had to be brought up by taxi to drive the train to where it could taken OOS.

 

[Zoe]

If that was the rule , they would HAVE to be available.

If that was the case then I'd expect they would have to be paid to be availabe at all times the railway was running. Many railways would find this too expensive.

 

[AlexS]

It depends on the situation. Don't forget that on most preserved lines there is a very different operating hierarchy to BR and as a result some job roles have become blurred.

On the GCR for example signalman technically do not have access to the locking rooms, but in practice a key is provided in the box because it's where the gas/electric/water isolation points are located, and we can't afford to lose a box for a matter of keeping with the old times - Network Rail generally seem to provide signallers with keys for locking rooms nowadays however.

However the old adage where an S&T technician cannot be a signalman remains.

There are alarms on the block instruments etc to stop anyone from tampering with them (very loud ones at that!), that require a key held by the signalling engineer to reset.

Competencies become blurred because people don't just do one job role - I'm qualified as a signalman, station master (chargeman/station supervisor/duty manager rather than the traditional olde style BR/Big 4/Previous station master role), shunter, S&T (installation and supervised maintenance only) and so on - as a result I hold more competencies than a traditional Signalman might have done, and in an emergency I can act appropriately (ie if I'm a duty signalman then I wouldn't get any further involved in the S&T side of things than going to see if my detection/FPL etc had got stuck on the points, as any good person should, whereas if I'm on duty as a booking clerk and something goes Pete Tong then I can weigh in as required after informing the relevant people).

It's also worth remembering that many senior line managers are volunteers themselves and not always on site - there is a nominated Responsible Officer who acts as the senior duty manager on the railway, but they are not supermen and can't be expected to be doing everything - why is why the GCR rules allow for them to nominate competent persons to discharge their duties - for example with the manual operation of motor operated points.

We also have operations representatives spread about at busy galas - for example if I am working as the Quorn Movements Inspector, then on behalf of the responsible officer I look after the traffic movements in the area, and also should the crossover points go wrong, it would me, working with the signalman, who operates them, subject to the correct circumstances being in place.

 

[Zoe]

There are alarms on the block instruments etc to stop anyone from tampering with them (very loud ones at that!), that require a key held by the signalling engineer to reset.

I doubt anyone is going to hear it at Swithland. If Swithland is to be a GWR installation then there's a very easy way of clearing the section signal without line clear. This is one reason for having restrictions on people that can do safety critical jobs.

 

[Tomnick]

I suspect and hope that turning the block switch 'out' won't release the section signal. A GW-style installation maybe, but we're certainly not a GW operation.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Let me clarify a bit:
I'm training to be a guard, and I have also done the point winding course. I'm not sure whether doing it is a pre-requisite or not. I've also done handsignalling and pilotman courses.

I would agree with AlexS. Because of the nature of HRs many people have many competencies. Obviously if I was booked guard I'm not going to jump off and go and do point winding, but if I was platform staff with 3 or 4 people, then someone might.

 

[PinzaC55]

"I would agree with AlexS. Because of the nature of HRs many people have many competencies. Obviously if I was booked guard I'm not going to jump off and go and do point winding, but if I was platform staff with 3 or 4 people, then someone might"

So let's say there are several sets of points to be wound, widely spaced. Because of this you decide Alf will do the points at one end and Terry will do the points at the other. There's a misunderstanding and through wrongly set points a train is derailed and someone is seriously injured. The H&SE in all their might descend on the scene. How do you think they would view this, and if they found someone at fault what would be the implications for the railway concerned? And for the person who passed Alf and Terry as competent to do the job?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If I was doing it, then I would not let anyone help me. Others might, but I would hope they would check all sets of points and walk through te route, as I would.

As to your second point, there's a risk with everything. If I was handsignalling, I could show a yellow when it should be a red. But I won't.