Speed limits

[Bittern]

I'm aware that the speed limit for passenger trains on heritage railways is usually 25 mph. Has there ever been any exceptions to the rule as in some service trains being allowed to go over said limit?

Also, does this only apply to passenger trains or are ECS, light engine movements, freights etc. also limited to 25?

Thanks.

 

[Ferret]

I'm aware that the speed limit for passenger trains on heritage railways is usually 25 mph. Has there ever been any exceptions to the rule as in some service trains being allowed to go over said limit?

Also, does this only apply to passenger trains or are ECS, light engine movements, freights etc. also limited to 25?

Thanks.

The GCR has permission to run at 60mph in certain circumstances. But as regards passenger services on heritage railways, it's 25mph and that's that, courtesy of those railways running on a light railway order.

 

[autotank]

But the Heart of Wales Line runs under a LRO and it runs at over 25mph?!

 

[Supersaint]

It’s a shame really as even if it increased the speed just by 15-20 mph to 40-45mph it would make such a different to Themed weekends , mainly Diesel weekends to see them really working & having a good old Thrash & a Clagging Session. I know 5-6 years ago The Mid Hants got fined (Diesel Weekend) as there Loco’s weren’t running at 25mph & they got caught doing up to speeds of up to 40mph (LOL), wasn’t sure what Loco ’or Loco’s it was (may have been the class 31 they had there ?). They then gave the Diesel Weekends a rest for 4 years.

 

[Zoe]

I expect AWS and possibly Track Circuit Block would be required for higher line speeds and I doubt many heritage lines want that.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I expect AWS and possibly Track Circuit Block would be required for higher line speeds and I doubt many heritage lines want that.

You've pretty much got it, but I do wonder just how many times this question will get asked on forums!!

Preserved lines are 25mph maximum, for all train movements. Freights, LE, run pasts, enthusiast events, everything. The only exceptions are a couple of designated test tracks, when being used for that purpose only, and I believe a derogation for demonstration TPO trains at a couple of locations.

If you want to have a higher speed, then you need TPWS, AWS, maybe OTMR, (depending on the speed envisaged), centralised door locking, or to negotiate an alternative system, as with the Mk 1's used to Whitby. The infrastructure would need looking at too. Maintenance regimes and documentation, signal sighting & spacing, etc. TCB is the one thing that may not be required! (There's plenty of more primative signaling still extant on the network). Then crew competence would get put under the microscope. Either psychometric testing, or a documented experience based system, as has been used for Whitby running. That's the example of what's required, and it has involved a lot of time and money.

 

[Jonny]

But the Heart of Wales Line runs under a LRO and it runs at over 25mph?!

Possibly, this suggests an average of 35mph http://www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/WelTAGPresentation.pdf (pdf file). I thought the HoW was a light railway. What gives?

 

[WL113]

35mph is the limit on LRO preserved lines, but due to the lack of speedometers on steam locos and no working, calibrated, speedometers required on diesel locos, there can be no action taken against the locos owners, drivers, or the light railway concerned.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

35mph is the limit on LRO preserved lines, but due to the lack of speedometers on steam locos and no working, calibrated, speedometers required on diesel locos, there can be no action taken against the locos owners, drivers, or the light railway concerned.

Utter bollox! Action can, and does, be taken against railways who exceed 25m.p.h. HMRI regularly come to railways to ride with a GPS set.

 

[ChrisCooper]

There is no requirement for a road vehicle to have a working or calibrated speedometer, but that won't stop you getting done for speeding. I didn't realise they used GPS (probably a new thing) but speed guns are a commonly used. In most basic form (which would have been used going back to when light railway orders first were used) they can just time between points. Steam locos are actually fairly easy to gauge speed on anyway, as they make so much noise, much related to speed. Diesels are harder, but jointed track is a big help.

Out of interest who is liable for speeding on preserved lines? I'd have thought it would be the driver, but from what i've heard in relation to it it seems more like the railway themselves get done. How strict are they too? I presume they would not be causing trouble for running at 26mph, but 40mph would be another matter?

 

[AlexS]

GCR runs up to 75 mph in places now. Demonstration TPOs are up to 35 mph.

Can't see absolute block being an issue as some lines running up to 90 mph and such still use it.

AWS however is otherwise and you can possibly expect to see AWS installations at preserved railways in the future.

 

[GM078]

Given that a large porportion of the heritage line market is the general public, I'd imagine that the majority of customers are happy with sitting back and enjoying the ride, taking in the scenery, etc, at 25mph. No doubt keeping a line fit for higher speeds would require greater resources beyond many heritage groups. H&S is often knocked but if risk mitigation helps prevent an accident and possible closure of a heritage line then I'm all for it.

 

[Zoe]

Can't see absolute block being an issue as some lines running up to 90 mph and such still use it.

I doubt you'd get a new installation of absolute block anywhere though. NR even know seems set on absolishing AB areas as soon as possible. Track Circuit Block guarantees that the line is clear up and to including the overlap of the next signal, Absolute Block does not. Signalmen on heritage lines are safety critical and have to pass medicals but are not subjected to psychometric testing and competency based interviews like on NR.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I doubt you'd get a new installation of absolute block anywhere though. NR even know seems set on absolishing AB areas as soon as possible. Track Circuit Block guarantees that the line is clear up and to including the overlap of the next signal, Absolute Block does not. Signalmen on heritage lines are safety critical and have to pass medicals but are not subjected to psychometric testing and competency based interviews like on NR.

Speak for yourself, on my heritage railway even platform staff have to go through an interview.
Let's remember, heritage railways aren't "new" installations of AB. Some have been around since the 70s and the 80s.

Given that a large porportion of the heritage line market is the general public, I'd imagine that the majority of customers are happy with sitting back and enjoying the ride, taking in the scenery, etc, at 25mph. No doubt keeping a line fit for higher speeds would require greater resources beyond many heritage groups. H&S is often knocked but if risk mitigation helps prevent an accident and possible closure of a heritage line then I'm all for it.

That's the nub of it, really. At 25 mph on the MHR you get a good 40mins trundling through the Hampshire countryside. If it was 70, it'd be 10-15 minutes.

 

[Zoe]

Speak for yourself, on my heritage railway even platform staff have to go through an interview.

An interview yes but I doubt it's of competency based type where they ask for extesive examples where you can demostrate the various competencies you have and probe the examples in extreme detail. I also doubt that extensive psychometric testing is used.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

An interview yes but I doubt it's of competency based type where they ask for extesive examples where you can demostrate the various competencies you have and probe the examples in extreme detail. I also doubt that extensive psychometric testing is used.

We must also remember that for senior roles in the traffic dept. you start on the platform - and senior staff will be assessing you. If you can't cope with that, then there's no way you're going to get to the higher grades.
I've just become a trainee guard, and to do that I've been platform staff since October '08, undergone pilotman, handsignalman and manual operation of electric points assessments, and done a higher training assessment where everything I've done - as well as some things I haven't (to judge common sense etc) have been assessed.

It's not a unprofessional, fly-by-night operation. At the end of the day, if someone dies as a result of my error then I'm in court for manslaughter.

 

[Zoe]

you start on the platform

Yes but these days on NR even for a platform job you need to be able to demonstrate various competencies from previous employment experience to be considered.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes but these days on NR even for a platform job you need to be able to demonstrate various competencies from previous employment experience to be considered.

The big railway is vastly different to heritage railways, I'll agree. But we still have to run to the same standards and laws. It's not a load of cranks turning up to play trains. As I said, at the end of the day, I can end up in court if I do something wrong.

 

[Zoe]

It's not a load of cranks turning up to play trains.

Oh I don't think that at all. I have seen the working of a signal box on a heritage line first hand and everything was done as the rules say. What I'm saying that is that if AB was to be permitted for higher line speeds then Health and Safety could demand that all signalmen are put through psychometric testing and competency based interviews.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What I'm saying that is that if AB was to be permitted for higher line speeds then Health and Safety could demand that all signalmen are put through psychometric testing and competency based interviews.

I very much doubt it. The only thing that would differ is the length from the home signal to the clearing point, and the section time. Otherwise everything is very much the same.

The biggest challenge would be the cost of extending overlaps, and bringing the track up to 70/80/90 standards. Longer point sets etc.

 

[Zoe]

I very much doubt it. The only thing that would differ is the length from the home signal to the clearing point, and the section time. Otherwise everything is very much the same.

Shouldn't the clearing point always be 440 yards if the distant is a semaphore?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Shouldn't the clearing point always be 440 yards if the distant is a semaphore?

Yes - although not all distants are semaphores! Signalling isn't my forte. I know what signals mean, and I've done a few days in a box, and a pilotman and handsignalman but that's about it!
It's mainly infrastructure changes, such as longer point turnouts - possibly the sighting of signals.

 

[Zoe]

Yes - although not all distants are semaphores!

If the distant is a colour light then the clearing point would be 200 yards beyond the home. I can't see any reason why a clearing point would have to be extended for higher speeds.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If the distant is a colour light then the clearing point would be 200 yards beyond the home. I can't see any reason why a clearing point would have to be extended for higher speeds.

I know - signalling isn't my forte. The spacing of signals would have to be looked at if higher speeds were to be introduced- that was what I meant (I think! )

 

[Gavelex]

Thought it might be worth adding, Epping - Ongar is installing AWS and as far as I know the speed limit will still be 25.

Also, at EOR it is very much competency based interviews for safety critical roles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The spacing of signals would have to be looked at if higher speeds were to be introduced- that was what I meant (I think! )

Correct - although on the Ongar line I think all that would need to be done is cut the trees back further in most places - the only area that I can think of off-hand that could be an issue would be approaching North Weald eastbound, and then a repeater round the bend should fix any issue.

 

[Tomnick]

If linespeed is to increase, signalling-wise the most important things to review would be the braking distance available from a distant signal to the first associated stop signal (a greater distance will obviously be required at higher speeds), and the sighting of signals (again, a greater sighting distance will be required at higher speeds to maintain the same sighting time).

Although 440yds is the standard overlap for an AB line with a semaphore distant, I'm sure there's scope for any railway to modify that under its own Rule Book and design standards. One of the questions currently in my head is whether the clearing point can be brought inside 440yds at a location where the linespeed at the distant is 10mph on a rising gradient (albeit subsequently falling towards the home).

Given that the Signalman's job won't become significantly more demanding at higher speeds (as already stated, the biggest effect will be shorter section times!), I don't see how that should affect selection procedures or competence assessment, which already have to be appropriately thorough.

Out of interest who is liable for speeding on preserved lines? I'd have thought it would be the driver, but from what i've heard in relation to it it seems more like the railway themselves get done. How strict are they too? I presume they would not be causing trouble for running at 26mph, but 40mph would be another matter?

The railway itself is responsible for ensuring that Drivers are properly trained and monitored, so I'd expect that any external Inspector finding a Driver exceeding 25mph would approach the railway to ensure that its systems were in order, and that regular monitoring was taking place (thus any such 'speeding' incident would be a one-off rather than a regular and uncontrolled occurrance), rather than going after the Driver personally. Presented with evidence, I'm sure the railway would then chase the Driver just as it would if one of its own Inspectors had found him exceeding 25mph.

 

[Zoe]

Given that the Signalman's job won't become significantly more demanding at higher speeds (as already stated, the biggest effect will be shorter section times!), I don't see how that should affect selection procedures or competence assessment, which already have to be appropriately thorough.

The consequences of sending another train into an occupied block section at higher speeds are likely to be much more serious though. The difference with a heritage line is competency is assesssed in training and on the job whereas on NR you'd never get in the door in the first place if you couldn't demonstrate extensive experience of the competencies they wanted through previous employment.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The consequences of sending another train into an occupied block section at higher speeds are likely to be much more serious though.

Yes, but how often does that happen on a heritage railway? In fact, I can't recall a time anywhere where a signalman has sent a train into an occupied section (other than for the purposes of shunting!)

 

[Gavelex]

Yes, but how often does that happen on a heritage railway? In fact, I can't recall a time anywhere where a signalman has sent a train into an occupied section (other than for the purposes of shunting!)

+1 :roll:

 

[Tomnick]

The only 'two in a bed' incidents that I'm aware of have all happened on the national network - I've never heard of it happened on a fully signalled heritage railway. Any operation that doesn't train and assess its Signalmen to a level sufficient to ensure that such irregularities are virtually eliminated has got serious issues, whether that's Network Rail or a 10mph dockside heritage line.

The key difference between NR and heritage operations is that the latter, as highlighted above, usually already know their staff pretty well before they come forward for training in safety-critical roles. Additionally, there's not so much to be lost if the odd one fails to complete the course for whatever reason (which is inevitable). Network Rail are faced with a large number of unfamiliar faces for external applications, and they need to be sure that they're taking on folk who have the best ability to get through the training successfully - and I'd suggest that's one big reason for assessing competencies beforehand.