Speed Limits (50 over 75)

[Jordy]

What speed would a Class 5 ECS from a Class 1 charter (loco hauled) be able to do?

Ta

Jordy

 

[matt]

75

 

[westcoaster]

differencial speeds top speed only for freight trains, bottom speed passenger trains and postal sevices.

 

[rail-britain]

Bit sad that...
A freight train can do 75, and a passenger train 50

 

[me123]

Bit sad that...
A freight train can do 75, and a passenger train 50

Is it not the other way around?

 

[1D53]

Posts above are incorrect.

Top Speed applies to Class 4 6 7 8 and 9 only.
Bottom Speed applies to Class 1 2 3 5 and 0.

Can also be used with other terms such as

HST = 43 (also 373 and 220/221)
EPS = Enhanced Permitted Speed (Tilt)

 

[pedned]

Are class 170's not also allowed to travel under HST speed limits?

 

[1D53]

Not that I know of. 220/221/222/43/373 only.

 

[Jordy]

Thanks guys!

 

[devon_metro]

Posts above are incorrect.

Top Speed applies to Class 4 6 7 8 and 9 only.
Bottom Speed applies to Class 1 2 3 5 and 0.

Can also be used with other terms such as

HST = 43 (also 373 and 220/221)
EPS = Enhanced Permitted Speed (Tilt)

Many vomits run as class 9 so technically that is false

 

[Tom]

Not that I know of. 220/221/222/43/373 only.

On the South Western division of the former Southern Region where differential speed restrictions apply (not many places), 442s, 444s and 450s can all take advantage of them ...

170s can certainly take advantage of higher speeds on the highland mainline...

 

[yorkie]

The bottom figure always shows the higher speed. It applies to:​

• passenger trains (loaded or empty)
• parcels and postal trains (loaded or empty)
• light locomotives.

The top figure applies to all other trains​

Are class 170's not also allowed to travel under HST speed limits?

Yes they are

On the South Western division of the former Southern Region where differential speed restrictions apply (not many places), 442s, 444s and 450s can all take advantage of them ...

since when? must be a recent change? The last type to be added that I can find documented was 390s, has other stock been added since?

170s can certainly take advantage of higher speeds on the highland mainline...

There are HST speed limits on the HML? I don't recall seeing any! Can you say where they are? Unless you are counting the line via Kirkcaldy (that has a single/jointed-track branch to the HML)?...

 

[Ascot]

All depends on the territory, where, route clearance, RA, all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff not just a basic class 0,1,2,5 bottom all others top.

As a wise man said:

Highland Mainline (Perth to Inverness) which i have infront of me, just bi-directional no other differential speeds of the sort, sorry Tom.

The Ladybank-Hilton line doesn't have any either.

 

[Tom]

Gah - it's one of em, either the Inverness or Aberdeen line ... one of my favourites to get mixed up. Try the other one!

 

[Ascot]

Perth to Inverness = Highland Line Very widely known and IIRC you made reference to this line so how you didn't get mixed up?
Edinburgh Aberdeen afaik is just Edinburgh Aberdeen and that's HST speeds not the unnamed top and bottom ones you are talking about.

Where did you see these anyway? I have to agree with Yorkie on this one i'm afraid. :?

 

[yorkie]

Loads in the Kirkcaldy/Burntisland/Fife area, I think that's what Tom was referring to.

 

[Tom]

Hmm.... just because you can't mix it up doesn't mean others can. :roll:

If you look, JsT referred to HST differential speeds.

Where did I see these? I seem to distinctly remember either seeing a post about it or someone telling me. Specifically someone who was given a guards manual.

 

[Ascot]

442s 450s and 444s don't run at HST speeds, there's a restriction however on anything but 442s 450s and 444s and HSTs where the speed is 100 but those that are not those can only run at 90mph, where it's HST speeds it's just normal.

 

[Respite]

Some units are allowed to use HST or more normally EPS diffrential speeds but only where authorised. Our 175's were stuck at normal linespeed between newport & cardiff until recently when we were authorised to use the higher HST speeds.

By the way, quick quiz. Does anyone know why the freight speed is at the top??

 

[me123]

Aberdeen line, I think, has one or two split signs, on of which may be an HST limit.

 

[Ascot]

Aberdeen line, I think, has one or two split signs, on of which may be an HST limit.

Yeah they all HST limits past the curve at Haymarket.

 

[1D53]

HST speed limits are present on the Edinburgh - Aberdeen line, even one over the Forth Bridge from what I remember. I'm going to Aberdeen again on Thursday so I'll try and get some pics.

Many vomits run as class 9 so technically that is false

Maybe thats why their frequently delayed

 

[O L Leigh]

There are other differential speeds other than HST and EPS. The most common is SP, which applies to Cl150-171 DMU's. However, you can also see EMU, DMU, just plain old MU, and even E for electric stock. The Rule Book defines HST as including Cl91+Mk4 stock, Cl168-180 DMU's (but interestingly not Cl175's), Cl220-222, HST's, Cl390's and Cl373's. Where both SP and HST differential speeds are posted, Cl168-171 can run at the higher of the two speeds.

Incidentally, the Rule Book indicates that a normal differential speed restriction is not dependent on the train's classification. Passenger and parcel trains, whether loaded or empty, and light locos can run at up to the higher posted speed. However, even this will be dictated largely by the maximum permitted speed of the rolling stock and may even be subject to local instructions at certain locations.

Ghostcav: I wasn't aware there was a particular reason for having the freight speed at the top and was just set by convention, but at a guess I would say that a driver's line of sight from a freight loco might be worse than from passenger stock.

one TN

 

[Ascot]

HST speed limits are present on the Edinburgh - Aberdeen line, even one over the Forth Bridge from what I remember. I'm going to Aberdeen again on Thursday so I'll try and get some pics.

Spot on Forth Bridge 20/50 but just 20 for Wrong Directional

Tays 20/HST35 then 20/HST25

 

[GeoffM]

All depends on the territory, where, route clearance, RA, all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff not just a basic class 0,1,2,5 bottom all others top.

Agreed. The LT&S, for example, has differential speeds where the greater mph figure applies to EMUs and the lesser mph figure applies to loco-hauled trains of any description. So Jordy's charter, had it been on the LT&S, would have had to adhere to the lesser mph value - even if it was a class 1.

[Edit] They're straight xx/yy boards, not specific like xx/EMU yy.

Geoff M.

 

[Respite]

Ghostcav: I wasn't aware there was a particular reason for having the freight speed at the top and was just set by convention, but at a guess I would say that a driver's line of sight from a freight loco might be worse than from passenger stock.

one TN

Close but not close enough mate. It is an old idea not really as relevant as it was. But the idea being that in heavy snow falls & drifting the lowest speed would be visable after the higher speed had been covered with snow.The other way around would mean that a single speed could be shown & that would be the high one. If you see what I mean.
Who says that working as a signaller & ops manager doesnt teach you anything!

Oh & around our way all the SP boards were replaced with MU a year ago.

Heart of wales line is class as its all the old cut out figure signage. No marked differential speeds although there are some speeds I can ignore driving an MU as they only apply to loco hauled. Made road learning it a pain though combined with stations I found hard to pronounce (Llangnyllo,Cilmeri,Llanggamack). :roll:

 

[Bill EWS]

The slowest Speed over a section of line is the most important restriction, therefore should be the first one to spot when looking at multiple speed restriction boards. Likewise freight trains are much heavier than passenger trains therefore more important that they come down to the slowest speed as possible. Speed affacts both wear & tear of the track and reduces vibration. Therefore it is most important that the freight speed restrcition is at the top of the list.

The mention of the speeds over both the Forth & Tay bridges proves this and I am sure those playing the BVE Edinburgh-Aberdeen route have noticed hoiw easy it is to run too fast onto these bridges from an inexperienced driving position!

The size of the driver's window makes little or no difference to being able to spot the speed restriction boards. In all cases you are still looking forward along the track with the advantage of hight. Only with 'noses' such as with Class 37's do you loose sight of the speed board or ground signal if too close, but vision from distance is normal.

With passenger trains, particularly Units, weight, braking and loading guage determin whether they can use the top speed as for an HST. This wasn't a problem in BR days as most locos and trains were designed for 'general' use over most of the railway. Under privatisation train companies will purchase trains, by cost' as long as they are fit for their own routes. Problems arise when they then get taken up by a new company and have to be used over different routes.

http://billreid678.fotopic.net/

Cheers.

BIllEWS.

 

[O L Leigh]

Agreed. The LT&S, for example, has differential speeds where the greater mph figure applies to EMUs and the lesser mph figure applies to loco-hauled trains of any description. So Jordy's charter, had it been on the LT&S, would have had to adhere to the lesser mph value - even if it was a class 1.

[Edit] They're straight xx/yy boards, not specific like xx/EMU yy.

If the differential speed does apply only for EMU's then the speed board must reflect this. A standard xx/yy board does not do this. Therefore, a class 1 charter can run at the higher speed also unless there is some reason why it cannot (e.g. maximum speed of the rolling stock or some local instruction limiting the speed of operation) no matter what sort of train it is.

one TN

 

[Ascot]

If the differential speed does apply only for EMU's then the speed board must reflect this. A standard xx/yy board does not do this. Therefore, a class 1 charter can run at the higher speed also unless there is some reason why it cannot (e.g. maximum speed of the rolling stock or some local instruction limiting the speed of operation) no matter what sort of train it is.

one TN

There MU speeds below not "xx/yy" on the LTS and some do between Clapham and Weymouth where HSTs 442s 444s and 450s can but only on those listed in Signalling and Remarks

where a differential speed is shown the higher speed only applies to multiple unit stock. Any other category of train must travel at the lower speed.

I've seen things saying it's to do with how many bogies as well

Edit:

Found a great example of how complex all this is:
Far North line just coming out of Inverness into single track:
The Table's split into 2 columns for a start, 15X trains Only and Other than 15X train only, so thats a great start,
In the 15x column between 41 chains and 1m 45 chains it's all 50, HOWEVER on the other than 15x bit between 41 and 46 it's 50, between 46 and 60 chains it's 20/50 <-- no MU or HST on it, then 50 between 60 and 1 m 45, this goes on quite a bit and alot of the boards might not be in place on the line side. Depends on the bogies i think in this case. Wagons and that do 20 but Mk2 coaches do 50?

 

[O L Leigh]

You've not been very clear in your explanations, so forgive me if I've misunderstood.

If you are saying that differential speed boards on the LT&S state a different speed for MU's then GeoffM is indeed correct. However, he states that they do not and are just straightforward xx/yy boards, in which case there is no differentiation between the type of rolling stock being used. Passenger, parcels and light loco movements go at the higher speed.

When you are talking about the "Table" for the Far North Line, I'm presuming that you are referring to the Sectional Appendix. If so, this covers what I was referring to as local instructions which would take precedence over the posted line speed. This could be because of some feature of the line that makes certain rolling stock less suitable, such as curvature or gradient or the likelihood that a train may strike a platform edge.

However, differential speed restrictions are not complex at all. Your example of a complicated arrangement would easily be dealt with using just the following boards and every driver using that stretch of line would know precisely what speed they should be doing no matter what type or class of train they were driving.

0m 41ch - 50
0m 46ch - 20/50
0m 60ch - 50

That the compliers of the Sectional Appendix have felt the need to have two columns for Sprinters and non-Sprinters is needless muddying of the waters. Even if there was a three-way differentiation, what you'd see on the lineside are two speed signs with something like "20/50" on one and "SP 65" on the other.

As for there not being lineside signs, this sort of thing should be reported. OK, so it's covered by a driver's route knowledge so that you don't need to rely on them, but they should still be there, in good repair and in clear sight.

Bogies (or lack of) dictating permissable speed is a red herring. I've never seen or heard of any document pertaining to this and can find no mention of it in the rules.

one TN