Speculation on Class 185 future

[LewHammer]

If this was an ideal world (is currently far from it !!), I'd love to see them operated by XC on the Stansted-Birmingham/Notts-Cardiff routes, as they would surely provide a more comfortable environment than the current 170s, and also enhances capacity by comparison to 2 car services, with the first class area reduced or even abolished? As the 9 seats are very rarely used from what I usually see! with this, capacity would somewhat similar to a 3 car 170, with the option at peak times of coupling 2 together for 6 car formations!

 

[Philip]

Still think the Welsh Marches is a good option, especially if they can be passed for MU speeds. You could either replace all the 175s with 185s and run the busier services doubled up, or split them between North Wales and Marches services; perhaps with single formation 185s replacing existing 2-car 175 diagrams.

 

[Bevan Price]

These units were designed to cross the Pennines, were they not? That is why they are heavy and of a design for middle distance journeys. So Carlisle to Newcastle, Carlisle to Leeds, Preston to Leeds would seem rational. Are the lower speed limits capable of remediation?

.

Yes - if you provide enough ££££££££££.
??? How many underbridges would need to be rebuilt or replaced to accept higher weights / speeds?.

How many miles of track would need to be relaid / reballasted, etc ?

 

[DanNCL]

Yes - if you provide enough ££££££££££.
??? How many underbridges would need to be rebuilt or replaced to accept higher weights / speeds?.

How many miles of track would need to be relaid / reballasted, etc ?

None for Carlisle to Newcastle, as 185s are already cleared for that route iirc (one worked that way on a railtour a few years back). With the Northern Connect service from Carlisle to Newcastle planned to be extended to Middlesbrough, possibly via Durham, the 100 mph top speed of the 185s could be put to use on the ECML south of Newcastle.

 

[stu99]

None for Carlisle to Newcastle, as 185s are already cleared for that route iirc (one worked that way on a railtour a few years back). With the Northern Connect service from Carlisle to Newcastle planned to be extended to Middlesbrough, possibly via Durham, the 100 mph top speed of the 185s could be put to use on the ECML south of Newcastle.

It certainly did, it was last year.
https://flic.kr/p/UkexF1
(My photo)

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes - if you provide enough ££££££££££.
??? How many underbridges would need to be rebuilt or replaced to accept higher weights / speeds?.

How many miles of track would need to be relaid / reballasted, etc ?

Yes, I know. But why are there so many track miles that are so ropey that only the lighter vehicles can be allowed a reasonable speed? Is that the standard of care for the passenger railway we tolerate? Rhetorical question of course, it is. But the routes where this applies are not lightly used backwaters.

 

[Agent_Squash]

None for Carlisle to Newcastle, as 185s are already cleared for that route iirc (one worked that way on a railtour a few years back). With the Northern Connect service from Carlisle to Newcastle planned to be extended to Middlesbrough, possibly via Durham, the 100 mph top speed of the 185s could be put to use on the ECML south of Newcastle.

There would be an awful lot of ECS miles to Ardwick if this was implemented. While it sounds good in theory, it's best that the 195s get this service and the 185s take a service that they have already been cleared for.

 

[DanNCL]

There would be an awful lot of ECS miles to Ardwick if this was implemented. While it sounds good in theory, it's best that the 195s get this service and the 185s take a service that they have already been cleared for.

Unfortunately the 195s aren't planned to operate this service; 158s are currently proposed instead despite it being a Connect route, hence my suggestion of 185s (they're not the new trains that Northern seem desperate to keep away from the North East, but they're not nearly 30 years old either!). It wouldn't be that difficult to train the staff at Heaton for heavy maintenance of 185s, seeing as they already carry out light maintenance of 185s there, but unfortunately it's unlikely to happen as that would involve training costs (although the staff would need to be trained for 158 maintenance anyway!)

Unfortunately the likelihood is that 158s will get the service, even though 185s and 195s would be much better.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Unfortunately the 195s aren't planned to operate this service; 158s are currently proposed instead despite it being a Connect route, hence my suggestion of 185s (they're not the new trains that Northern seem desperate to keep away from the North East, but they're not nearly 30 years old either!). It wouldn't be that difficult to train the staff at Heaton for heavy maintenance of 185s, seeing as they already carry out light maintenance of 185s there, but unfortunately it's unlikely to happen as that would involve training costs (although the staff would need to be trained for 158 maintenance anyway!)

Unfortunately the likelihood is that 158s will get the service, even though 185s and 195s would be much better.

I'm aware that the 158s are proposed for that route - but there are other services in the NE that will be getting 195s, making them a better fit. It's better for 185s to stay at Ardwick instead of having to train depots which will get 195s anyway.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm aware that the 195s are proposed for that route - but there are other services in the NE that will be getting 195s, making them a better fit. It's better for 185s to stay at Ardwick instead of having to train depots which will get 195s anyway. Lakes and Furness customers would probably appreciate having their better old trains back anyway!

That's new then, as the plans I'd seen for the NE (some only very recently) indicated that everything would be 156s and 158s, including the connect route across the Tyne Valley and down either the ECML or Durham Coast to Middlesbrough. I was aware that Yorkshire was getting 195s, but not the North East.

Anyway, that's brilliant news if the NE will be getting 195s instead of 158s!

 

[northwichcat]

I'm aware that the 158s are proposed for that route - but there are other services in the NE that will be getting 195s, making them a better fit. It's better for 185s to stay at Ardwick instead of having to train depots which will get 195s anyway.

That's new then, as the plans I'd seen for the NE (some only very recently) indicated that everything would be 156s and 158s, including the connect route across the Tyne Valley and down either the ECML or Durham Coast to Middlesbrough. I was aware that Yorkshire was getting 195s, but not the North East.

Anyway, that's brilliant news if the NE will be getting 195s instead of 158s!

I'd be wary of that source. If Northern were to use 195s on North East routes the Northern Connect route would be the most logical to one to use them on not 'other North East routes.' I suspect either someone is including Yorkshire as part of the North East or they are getting mixed up with the new trains Newcastle and Middlesbrough will get on TPE services.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'd be wary of that source. If Northern were to use 195s on North East routes the Northern Connect route would be the most logical to one to use them on not 'other North East routes.' I suspect either someone is including Yorkshire as part of the North East or they are getting mixed up with the new trains Newcastle and Middlesbrough will get on TPE services.

I've just looked at the map again - it really is that sparse in the North East! Certainly do seem to be getting a raw deal, but then again Connect was only created because of the Cumbria services (which Arriva then decided to build on)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes, I know. But why are there so many track miles that are so ropey that only the lighter vehicles can be allowed a reasonable speed? Is that the standard of care for the passenger railway we tolerate? Rhetorical question of course, it is. But the routes where this applies are not lightly used backwaters.

Money.

 

[47802]

Yes, I know. But why are there so many track miles that are so ropey that only the lighter vehicles can be allowed a reasonable speed? Is that the standard of care for the passenger railway we tolerate? Rhetorical question of course, it is. But the routes where this applies are not lightly used backwaters.

Well yes but lets not forget the Railway has been massively underinvested for years and even more so on secondary routes, this one of the reasons why I am against reopening lines in most cases because many existing routes need massive investment, you only have look at the recent Blackpool Preston electrification, and look at the amount of other work that gone on in terms of track work, re modelling station platforms and new signalling etc.

While I know there will be objections re loosing a through route, I think the best suggestion for is for TPE to retain them and run them on Liverpool-Nottingham, which would then free up some 158's to allow EMT to strengthen other services.

 

[mic505]

What about EMT removing their 153's by end of next year?

 

[a_c_skinner]

lets not forget the Railway has been massively underinvested

Of course, I was complaining about collective attitude, not laying it at the door of the railway alone, though I suspect the railway gave tacit permission to solve some problems by fudging a cheap work around.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, I know. But why are there so many track miles that are so ropey that only the lighter vehicles can be allowed a reasonable speed? Is that the standard of care for the passenger railway we tolerate? Rhetorical question of course, it is. But the routes where this applies are not lightly used backwaters.

As far as I know the routes upgraded to higher speeds for Sprinters were never cleared for the higher speed by any sort of train before. So while there was no doubt some cost saving by upgrading speeds only for Sprinters rather than for all trains, it isn't the case that the route has deteriorated. It was never better in the first place.

 

[DanTrain]

What about EMT removing their 153's by end of next year?

They wouldn't go to EMT except possibly fro Notts - Liverpool. The 153s are desitned to be covered by GA 156s I believe.

Personally, I reckon northern connect seems the most logical destination, keeping them at Ardwick and perhaps Neville Hill too if possible and running whatever Northern need them to. Whether Arriva are prepared to pay for them is another matter however.

 

[northwichcat]

What about EMT removing their 153's by end of next year?

No good as 185s aren't going to be freed up until during 2020. The Anglia DMUs need to be used to replace any non-PRM stock, West Midlands 170s and the TPE 185s are options for adding extra capacity somewhere on the network after the accessibility deadline.