Speculation on Class 185 future

[Bletchleyite]

The benefit is to have a uniform fleet of 5 car trains (for the near future) on all routes except the WCML (in the middle future).

They aren't uniform, though.

You have a choice of 5x23m CAF EMUs (WCML), 5x22m LHCS, or 5x26m Class 802.

Three quite different fleets.

 

[whhistle]

There is a high chance that the East Midlands franchise consultation will result in the split of Liverpool to Norwich, with EMT keeping all 158s to internally cascade to replace 153s.

Any prospective franchise holder for the East Midlands franchise would be foolish not to include a complete new fleet of trains - bi-mode for the mainline and I guess some sort of 195 type of train for others. Depends if they get the Stansted to Birmingham route as the 170s are still okay for this.

Not too sure XC would want any of the 170s from Anglia.
Unless they will reform all their trains to be 4 coaches long (so standrd fleet length), then put the "spare" two driving ends together and palm them off to someone else (Northern?), I don't see the point as doubling up units is a headache for many reasons.

 

[The Ham]

I don't see the point as doubling up units is a headache for many reasons.

Yet the busiest railways in the country (i.e. In the South East) do so all the time and often have units splitting and joining on a regular basis (by regular I'm taking about several times a day).

 

[lejog]

Personally, 185s for Calder Valley services from West Yorkshire over the hills to Manchester Victoria/ Blackpool sound good, I can see them being useful on the Carlisle - Newcastle service plus a couple for the infrequent Carlisle - Leeds service, but many of the services they'd be suitable for are already promised "90% new trains", including four trains an hour on the Hebden Bridge corridor, so putting "fifteen year old" trains on these services is going to require contract renegotiation and some negative headlines about "commuters" not getting what they were promised - Northern are in a tricky position where they can't just rip up agreements, however appropriate 185s might be for getting up and over the Pennines through Hebden Bridge)

Speed differentials apply on the Calder Valley line too, with 185s limited to the old speeds on the recent upgrades to 90mph south of Rochdale. Not sure yet about the ongoing work from Todmorden to Bradford. So its a big no from me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet the busiest railways in the country (i.e. In the South East) do so all the time and often have units splitting and joining on a regular basis (by regular I'm taking about several times a day).

Most of them are gangwayed, though, which removes the annoyance.

 

[The Ham]

Most of them are gangwayed, though, which removes the annoyance.

Most but certainly not all, there's still quite a lot that aren't.

 

[47802]

One of the more sensible arguments against 230s at Northern (other than the emotional stuff about "London cast-offs" etc) is that the franchise should avoid small fleets of non-standard DMUs. Fair enough, I can see that argument.

Meanwhile (as well as the 8x three coach 90mph 158s), we will see 30x three coach 100mph 195s arriving, we already have the first of around a dozen three coach 100mph 170s sat at Holbeck, and people now want a smallish fleet of three coach 100mph 185s for the medium/long term too?

Just how many different types of three coach 100mph DMUs do we require? Is there nothing to be said for focussing on just one or two versions? Shame we can't do something clever like try to get a bigger fleet of 185s rather than take on a small fleet of 170s, but I guess the way that the franchises work Arriva had to try to tie up suitable stock to win the bid and can't now simply hand them back now it looks like "better" stock is coming onto the market.

(personally, 185s for Calder Valley services from West Yorkshire over the hills to Manchester Victoria/ Blackpool sound good, I can see them being useful on the Carlisle - Newcastle service plus a couple for the infrequent Carlisle - Leeds service, but many of the services they'd be suitable for are already promised "90% new trains", including four trains an hour on the Hebden Bridge corridor, so putting "fifteen year old" trains on these services is going to require contract renegotiation and some negative headlines about "commuters" not getting what they were promised - Northern are in a tricky position where they can't just rip up agreements, however appropriate 185s might be for getting up and over the Pennines through Hebden Bridge)

While the extra power may be useful the point is they don't really need it the existing stock has managed for the last 30 years and if was a big issue then likely they would be ordering more powerful 195's, and as has already been stated they cannot travel at sprinter speeds on parts of some routes, therefore I can only see Northern getting 185's if they can not get hold of more 170's or they are essentially pushed to use them by Dft.

 

[BMIFlyer]

They aren't uniform, though.

You have a choice of 5x23m CAF EMUs (WCML), 5x22m LHCS, or 5x26m Class 802.

Three quite different fleets.

Yes okay, you have a fleet of 5 car trains if you wish to nitpick.

 

[Class 170101]

The Elgin Line, Far North Line, West Highland Lines and Kyle Line maybe?

Nice big windows, and they're powerful...

I think the plan is for the existing 158s/170s to provide the improved local services on the Inverness-Elgin route with the Aberdeen services being operated by HSTs.

I like the 185s, they are very comfortable inside and quiet considering how powerful they are but I don't think they'll ever see use in the Highlands because of how heavy they are. They can't use the sprinter speed limits and that would make long journeys much longer!

Even Class 170s are not treated as Sprinters on the Far North / Kyle Lines so are not used. I understand the same applies to the Settle to Carlisle Route.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unless there’s a platform length issues that I am not aware of, or a desire to remove the 185s completely, what’s the benefit to replacing them?

They "drink" fuel, making them expensive to run. Also, being so heavy, they are not allowed to run at "Sprinter Speeds" at some locations. (e.g. Much of the Hope Valley line)

One solution might be to replace their engines with something lighter & less powerful, especially if they are to be used on lines where 100 mph running is not necessary.

 

[cf111]

Even Class 170s are not treated as Sprinters on the Far North / Kyle Lines so are not used. I understand the same applies to the Settle to Carlisle Route.

They have never been cleared to Kyle or Wick but are RA2 (the 158s are RA1) and have, or at least had when delivered, a space in the cabs where a RETB cab display unit could be fitted. It's conceivable (in my head, anyway!) that they may end up on these routes when the 158s are retired although I am really getting ahead of myself. If the HSTs weren't coming along I would have thought the 185s would have been a good fit for the Highland Mainline due to their power, especially when compared to the comparatively lethargic 170s.

I think the 170s have also been cleared into platform 5 at Inverness but they have never used it in passenger service.

 

[The Ham]

Of about 27 seats per unit, which when run as a 9 coach train could be a drop of 81 seats.

It could be possible to have 185's to be used by some of the off peak services so as to release more 159's to be used during the peaks.

The only reason you may do it is as a unit swap so that SWT ends up with more 2 coach 158's in exchange for some of their 159's to enable more peak hour services to run as 10 coach trains. In doing so there would then be a need for extra units to cover for some of the capacity loss from the "shortening" of the SWT 15x fleet, this could then be covered by the 185's.

It would also allow services, such as the Salisbury 6 (Romsey, Southampton, Salisbury), to be run by 185's freeing up 158's to be used for London services and/or move elsewhere.

However, if Exeter services are run by 10 coach trains with 6 coaches (a pair of 159's) going beyond Salisbury and 4 coaches (a pair of 158's) turning around to form the next train back (or the service to Bristol). There wouldn't be the need for that many extra 158's, as most of the 158's would be limited to running between Waterloo and Salisbury.

Then the rest of the services could be run as 10 coach 158's/159's or 9 coach 185's (timetabled to be on services which are not quite as busy) with some 185's being used to run the Salisbury 6 services (possibly on an increased frequency of 2tph, which may only need 5 units rather than the current 3 if turnarounds are made a bit tighter).

Although that may be until circa 2025 (plus or minus a few years) when the following franchise could start to use EMU's (depending on electrification) for services (at least east and south of Salisbury).

Maintenance shouldn't be too much of a problem with SWT as the 185's should share quite a bit of kit as the 444's and 450's so shouldn't be too much extra work to maintain them.

However it could cause some problems with confusion between 158's and 185's if people aren't being careful with what they write!

Although the current SWR haven't taken on the 185's (given the fact that there not going to be available for a bit that makes sense) I still think that it could be a good place for them (as suggested above) at it frees up Sprinters to be used elsewhere without (as far as I can tell) needing to travel slower due to higher sprinter speed limits. It would also be in a franchise where a bit of a higher fuel bill wouldn't make a lot of difference.

In fact other than the restriction in capacity (the are definitely some diagrams where that wouldn't matter as they are unlike to be full) and the fact that you'd have two fleets of DMU's that may not be able to work together (although that could be fixed if needed) I'm not sure if any significant problems with then moving there.

However on the plus side you'd have:
- more 10 coach services to/from Waterloo
- 185 operation of the Salisbury 6 services (Salisbury to Romsey via Eastleigh)
- scope for longer trains to Exeter
- scope for longer/more frequent Bristol to Waterloo services
- score for services to Weymouth via Yeovil as an alternative (to Bristol) use of units on the Exeter services (although not faster that the current services not so slow that you'd get to Weymouth sooner by waiting for the next existing service if more than about 10 minutes later as due to the different calling patterns could be a big advantage for those traveling to/from Clapham Junction, Woking and Basingstoke)
- releases 159's for use elsewhere (although probably only half as many as the number of 185's that head there) which given that they are effectively 3 coach 158's would make them very useful to a lot of franchises. Especially if they allowed the 158's that were formed up of 1.5 units to be split back to being 2 coach units again.

On that final point you could probably release 12*159's to go to GWR to allow their 12*158/9's (3 coaches) to be converted back to 18 units with 2 coaches. It would probably require two diagrams normally run by 159's to be replaced by 185's, the Salisbury 6 services to be converted to 185 operation and all the 158's paired up to replace a single 159 to form 7 or 10 coach services.

It would be tight, especially if extra services (more Bristol or a new service to Weymouth via Yeovil) were introduced, but probably could be done.

[WISPER TO AVOID HAND BEING BITTEN OFF] 18 class 158's anyone? [/WISPER TO AVOID HAND BEING BITTEN OFF]

 

[Helvellyn]

Although the current SWR haven't taken on the 185's (given the fact that there not going to be available for a bit that makes sense) I still think that it could be a good place for them (as suggested above) at it frees up Sprinters to be used elsewhere without (as far as I can tell) needing to travel slower due to higher sprinter speed limits. It would also be in a franchise where a bit of a higher fuel bill wouldn't make a lot of difference.

Given First/MTR have committed to the 158s/159s for the life of the franchise I just can't see the benefit of a mixed diesel fleet. Especially given their argument for ditching the 458/5s and 707s alongside the 455/456 fleet is for fleet simplification. The benefit of one diesel fleet is that when things go wrong it can be easier to start a "Zulu" service from Salisbury to maintain timings East or West - West the single line sections means you want to try keep things on time; East the heavy use of the lines into Waterloo means you want to try and run things on time as best as possible. Plus you don't the issue where you have stock swap and end up trying to run a 159 with a 185!

 

[swt_passenger]

Given First/MTR have committed to the 158s/159s for the life of the franchise I just can't see the benefit of a mixed diesel fleet. Especially given their argument for ditching the 458/5s and 707s alongside the 455/456 fleet is for fleet simplification. The benefit of one diesel fleet is that when things go wrong it can be easier to start a "Zulu" service from Salisbury to maintain timings East or West - West the single line sections means you want to try keep things on time; East the heavy use of the lines into Waterloo means you want to try and run things on time as best as possible. Plus you don't the issue where you have stock swap and end up trying to run a 159 with a 185!

Agree, there are numerous disadvantages to SWR having 185s and almost no advantages. But I get the feeling this has been pointed out a few times already...

 

[Mordac]

Even Class 170s are not treated as Sprinters on the Far North / Kyle Lines so are not used. I understand the same applies to the Settle to Carlisle Route.

No Sprinter or MU differentials on the Settle and Carlisle.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No Sprinter or MU differentials on the Settle and Carlisle.

Isn't it max 60mph Skipton to Carlisle anyway? Not really the best use of 100mph units whatever their hill-climbing ability.

 

[Chester1]

Agree, there are numerous disadvantages to SWR having 185s and almost no advantages. But I get the feeling this has been pointed out a few times already...

The 185s are most suited for the transpennine services they where designed for. Once TPE don't need them then they will likely find a new home but its irrelevant for now. Those released in 2020 are likely to go to the ToC most desperate for PRM-TSI compliant fast DMUs.

 

[Class 170101]

No Sprinter or MU differentials on the Settle and Carlisle.

Indeed the local rasil user group up there has been warned off asking for both Class 170s and 185s to replace 158s.

 

[najaB]

If the HSTs weren't coming along I would have thought the 185s would have been a good fit for the Highland Mainline due to their power, especially when compared to the comparatively lethargic 170s.

The 2/3 door positions and being relatively heavy (plus the capacity decrease?) would counter that suggestion if you want an improvement over the 170s.

 

[The Ham]

Given First/MTR have committed to the 158s/159s for the life of the franchise I just can't see the benefit of a mixed diesel fleet. Especially given their argument for ditching the 458/5s and 707s alongside the 455/456 fleet is for fleet simplification. The benefit of one diesel fleet is that when things go wrong it can be easier to start a "Zulu" service from Salisbury to maintain timings East or West - West the single line sections means you want to try keep things on time; East the heavy use of the lines into Waterloo means you want to try and run things on time as best as possible. Plus you don't the issue where you have stock swap and end up trying to run a 159 with a 185!

Agree, there are numerous disadvantages to SWR having 185s and almost no advantages. But I get the feeling this has been pointed out a few times already...

I wasn't suggesting that it would happen, rather for the industry as a whole (given that there's limited places that the 185's would be useful and there's a shortage of DMU's) it could be a useful way to use the 185's.

There would be ways in which the use of 185's could be useful, which I did list in my post. Including the ability to run longer trains and the potential for more services, without needing more 158's which could significantly impact on other franchises if they were to do so. In fact it could, by releasing 159's to GWR to then release their 158/9's, provide a significant number of 158's for use elsewhere. These could then run more services using the sprinter speeds which are the reason that the 185's can't be used there.

Yes there could be issues if a unit was to be to be replaced in service, which may result in the need for a few extra spares than is currently needed, but wouldn't be insurmountable.

There's a number of services which are currently 3 coaches, including some into/out of London contra peak

 

[317 forever]

If the Welsh government prefer not to include Cardiff - Manchester in the Wales franchise, given that most of this route is in England, it could join TPE and give TPE a revised use for some of these units. Through services from Swansea, Carmarthen etc to Manchester will probably cease at that point.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed the local rasil user group up there has been warned off asking for both Class 170s and 185s to replace 158s.

Any particular reason? Or just simply because it won't happen.

 

[Bantamzen]

Isn't it max 60mph Skipton to Carlisle anyway? Not really the best use of 100mph units whatever their hill-climbing ability.

Maybe not, but then how often do they get beyond 60 along the Leeds-Manchester sections, especially when stuck behind a stopper. And the speed might be useful if Northern ever sought to extend some of the S&Cs to Glasgow for example? Plus the 185s are pretty good for panoramic views, and Northern do try to sell the route as such. And the space for the catering trolley would be greatly appreciated I'm sure!

 

[Class 170101]

Too heavy and journey time penalties would apply.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If the Welsh government prefer not to include Cardiff - Manchester in the Wales franchise, given that most of this route is in England, it could join TPE and give TPE a revised use for some of these units. Through services from Swansea, Carmarthen etc to Manchester will probably cease at that point.

Wouldn't this massively expand the scope of TPE for no reason, though? Main purpose of TPE is to be a trans-Pennine express (although WCML services have been tacked on too)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't this massively expand the scope of TPE for no reason, though? Main purpose of TPE is to be a trans-Pennine express (although WCML services have been tacked on too)

I'm not sure there is a sensible place for it that isn't ATW, really - you could put it in XC but then you've got more "XC-lite" type services which don't fit that very well. TPE, as you say, is about express services across the North, not a general "XC but with smaller DMUs" type thing.

My personal line on TPE is that it should have been merged back into Northern. So if you add a route to it that wouldn't make sense as part of Northern, it doesn't make sense to do it.

 

[backontrack]

I think the 170s have also been cleared into platform 5 at Inverness but they have never used it in passenger service.

Does that mean that 170s are cleared for the Rose Street Curve, then?

I certainly think that the 185s would be a good fit for the Highland Mainline with their power...

 

[a_c_skinner]

These units were designed to cross the Pennines, were they not? That is why they are heavy and of a design for middle distance journeys. So Carlisle to Newcastle, Carlisle to Leeds, Preston to Leeds would seem rational. Are the lower speed limits capable of remediation?

Of course what would have been most rational would have been 20 years ago to prevent the building of numerous, incompatible small fleets of vehicles.

 

[DanNCL]

These units were designed to cross the Pennines, were they not? That is why they are heavy and of a design for middle distance journeys. So Carlisle to Newcastle, Carlisle to Leeds, Preston to Leeds would seem rational. Are the lower speed limits capable of remediation?

Carlisle to Newcastle is to become Carlisle to Middlesbrough when Northern Connect launches, possibly operating via Durham. If this service does operate via Durham as has been suggested then 185s would be much more suitable for this than the currently proposed 158s, as the 185s can operate at 100 mph on the ECML, whereas the 158s are restricted 90 mph.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Perhaps if Northern gets the 185s, they do need to keep them in one specific area so the 195s don't have to be route cleared for more than they need to be? Hence Barrow/Windermere-Manchester is a good fit, as they are already cleared - another smaller route in the North West would occupy most of the units.