Speculation on Class 185 future

[Philip]

May be good to have a thread dedicated to this discussion as it seems the future of all or some of the class 185 fleet is up in the air.

First of all, do we have an exact figure of how many will stay with TPE? I'm slightly surprised that First haven't ordered a fleet of bi-mode trains to cover ALL routes, including South TPE, which really needs more than 3-car 185s running services (essentially 2.5 car if not including first class). Why not operate all services as 5-car trains, without the need to double up units?

But where will the remaining 185s go, aside from the likely temporary destination of Arriva Rail North? Is the ATW Marches route a realistic idea, or even Shrewsbury to Birmingham? I don't like the idea of 185s running Liverpool to Norwich, for some reason. You'd have to double them up for capacity reasons, but then there's the issue of platform lengths and no corridor connection for guards to walk through.

 

[47802]

Why there have discussions on this before and the cascade is some way off anyway.

Why buy a Bi-mode for South TPE when there is very little electric they can make use of at present and they can run 6 car 185's if required on that route, while if they are AT300's with end doors as expected they are probably not that suitable for the North TPE Semi Fast services.

When electrification is complete they can order a new Electric fleet, and keep some of the Bi-modes as required.

It seems to me that the number of trains purchased offers about the best option available at the moment, as it allows the required capacity increase, it allows services to Liverpool and Newcastle to make use of the wires, and it allows the majority of trains to make use of the wires as soon as the TPE electrification is progressed, but it still allows the option of an electric only fleet for some services when completed.

 

[Tubeboy]

The latest issue of Modern Railways, which is pretty reliable, says that First is expected to keep 28 of the 51 strong Class 185 fleet. The 28 will be refurbished and equipped with wifi. The 350/4s are being dispensed with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To LM? That would allow the chronically unreliable 319s to be scrapped.

 

[Tubeboy]

It doesn't say Neil, but they'd be the most likely or whoever gets the new franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't say Neil, but they'd be the most likely or whoever gets the new franchise.

They have to remain with TPE on Scottish services until at least Autumn 2018 due to the lease terms but after that they can go to any operator who signs a lease with Angel, including the future LM franchise.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Wasn't there talk of 185's being cascaded onto Liverpool - Nottingham section of the Liverpool - Norwich, but with the proposed split at Nottingham not going ahead that would lead to issues with 185's in East Anglia.

 

[northwichcat]

Doing some number crunching, maybe they are going to Northern after all in lieu of some Sprinters and Turbostars: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2440589&posted=1#post2440589 ?

 

[fowler9]

Wasn't there talk of 185's being cascaded onto Liverpool - Nottingham section of the Liverpool - Norwich, but with the proposed split at Nottingham not going ahead that would lead to issues with 185's in East Anglia.

God I hope not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To LM? That would allow the chronically unreliable 319s to be scrapped.

If that be so, let them go to Northern to replace their very own "chronically unreliable" Class 319 units.

 

[rebmcr]

If that be so, let them go to Northern to replace their very own "chronically unreliable" Class 319 units.

The Northern 319s have had a refurb, remember.

 

[dquebec]

Wasn't there talk of 185's being cascaded onto Liverpool - Nottingham section of the Liverpool - Norwich, but with the proposed split at Nottingham not going ahead that would lead to issues with 185's in East Anglia.

I heard that First created some sort of "feasibility study" as part of their TPE franchise bid which favourably presented splitting the route at Nottingham and transferring the EMT service to FTPE.

My initial thoughts are that it could be highly biased as TPE would gain quite a bit of additional revenue in my opinion, should they get the route. It also gives the route newer rolling stock, with first class and power sockets, eventually wifi I imagine too. I believe that they will have spare 185s available too.

 

[DJH1971]

The 350/4s are being dispensed with.

And replaced with?

 

[CAF397]

And replaced with?

We are awaiting an announcement from First, but the franchise announcement stated new units for the Scottish services (via both Carlisle and Newcastle).

 

[superkev]

185s would fly up the S and C hills.
Big windows too.
K

 

[matacaster]

185s would fly up the S and C hills.
Big windows too.
K

Agreed. They are very powerful.

The 185's also have air conditioning which works in the summer and heating which works in the winter which is a big improvement over the 158's. They also appear to be much better built. The 158's were claimed to suffer from "garden-shed engineering" (a comment by a senior BR engineering type).

The only downsides are the rock hard seating and the door location which might result in icy draughts at station stops in the winter.

 

[fowler9]

Agreed. They are very powerful.

The 185's also have air conditioning which works in the summer and heating which works in the winter which is a big improvement over the 158's. They also appear to be much better built. The 158's were claimed to suffer from "garden-shed engineering" (a comment by a senior BR engineering type).

The only downsides are the rock hard seating and the door location which might result in icy draughts at station stops in the winter.

The 185's also have almost an entire coach empty on many of their journies.

 

[47802]

I will throw a couple of wild ones in which probably wouldn't go down well on here but might appeal to DFT.

XC Manchester-Bristol, free up Voyagers to Bin HST's

MML London-Nottingham Semi Fasts until Electrics free up Meridians to Bin HST's.

In the case of option 1 current depot wouldn't be a problem

I don't see them going to Northern I imagine they will be more expensive than other DMU's, if Northern did get them they would be a logical choice for Northern Connect services especially over the proposed 158 Connect Services.

I would put EMT as most likely Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich

 

[Rich McLean]

I will throw a couple of wild ones in which probably wouldn't go down well on here but might appeal to DFT.

XC Manchester-Bristol, free up Voyagers to Bin HST's

MML London-Nottingham Semi Fasts until Electrics free up Meridians to Bin HST's.

In the case of option 1 current depot wouldn't be a problem

You maybe onto something there, however, many of the Manchester - Bristols run down down as far as Paignton, and one comes up from Penzance in the morning

 

[TheKnightWho]

We are awaiting an announcement from First, but the franchise announcement stated new units for the Scottish services (via both Carlisle and Newcastle).

The franchise agreement was 44 5-car trains capable of 125mph. I can't see these being anything other than bimodes.

Perhaps AT300s with the doors placed at 1/3 and 2/3 the way along carriages for quicker dwell times? Is that even possible in the specification?

 

[superkev]

Agreed. They are very powerful.

The 185's also have air conditioning which works in the summer and heating which works in the winter which is a big improvement over the 158's. They also appear to be much better built. The 158's were claimed to suffer from "garden-shed engineering" (a comment by a senior BR engineering type).

The only downsides are the rock hard seating and the door location which might result in icy draughts at station stops in the winter.

The S and C crosses the peninnes. Should it be Trans pennine?
I believe non northern rail neville hill maintained 158 units the air con works better.
K

 

[edwin_m]

The franchise agreement was 44 5-car trains capable of 125mph. I can't see these being anything other than bimodes.

Perhaps AT300s with the doors placed at 1/3 and 2/3 the way along carriages for quicker dwell times? Is that even possible in the specification?

The TP order includes some straight electric units for the Scottish services. I imagine for commonality of the fleet that these will just be the bi-modes minus the diesel engines.

I don't think a 185 could keep to time on the Midland Mainline, which was recently accelerated by introducing more running at over 100mph. There is also the problem of no end gangways so that no service would be fully walk-through.

My suggestions for 185s are Nottingham to Birmingham and Cardiff, and (tin hat on) replacing the loco-hauled services on Chiltern.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The TP order includes some straight electric units for the Scottish services. I imagine for commonality of the fleet that these will just be the bi-modes minus the diesel engines.

I don't think a 185 could keep to time on the Midland Mainline, which was recently accelerated by introducing more running at over 100mph. There is also the problem of no end gangways so that no service would be fully walk-through.

My suggestions for 185s are Nottingham to Birmingham and Cardiff, and (tin hat on) replacing the loco-hauled services on Chiltern.

You're probably right about that. Bimodes are a particularly good choice, since they can easily be converted as and when TP electrification completes in the early 2020s, too.

 

[Bevan Price]

185s would fly up the S and C hills.
Big windows too.
K

Not much point of using 100 mph units on a line mostly limited to 60 mph.

 

[Rapidash]

I reckon they'd be good for the GWR all shacks Penzance - Exeter runs, or Plymouth/Paignton - Cardiff. Better than the usual Sprinter anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

I will throw a couple of wild ones in which probably wouldn't go down well on here but might appeal to DFT.

XC Manchester-Bristol, free up Voyagers to Bin HST's

MML London-Nottingham Semi Fasts until Electrics free up Meridians to Bin HST's.

In the case of option 1 current depot wouldn't be a problem

I don't see them going to Northern I imagine they will be more expensive than other DMU's, if Northern did get them they would be a logical choice for Northern Connect services especially over the proposed 158 Connect Services.

I would put EMT as most likely Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich

As I have commented elsewhere, a 3 car 185 has over 100 fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s, as used on many services north of Nottingham. I don't see anyone wanting to run 6 car 185 formations between Nottingham & Liverpool (too expensive).

 

[43096]

The Northern 319s have had a refurb, remember.

An interior "refurb" (and I hesitate to call it that) doesn't do anything for reliability.

 

[The Ham]

I will throw a couple of wild ones in which probably wouldn't go down well on here but might appeal to DFT.

XC Manchester-Bristol, free up Voyagers to Bin HST's

MML London-Nottingham Semi Fasts until Electrics free up Meridians to Bin HST's.

In the case of option 1 current depot wouldn't be a problem

I don't see them going to Northern I imagine they will be more expensive than other DMU's, if Northern did get them they would be a logical choice for Northern Connect services especially over the proposed 158 Connect Services.

I would put EMT as most likely Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich

Given that a 185 has 169 seats vs 220's 200 seats and 221's 250 seats they would have to be run in pairs (338 seats) to exceed the capacity of the existing trains. That would give a 69% increase compared to the 220's and 35% compared to the 221's.

However, assuming permanent pairing, that means that 23 units (51 less the 28 required by TPE) would probably provide up to 10 diagrams. 7 of which would be required to run the core of Manchester to Bristol. 10 would get you 1tph Manchester to Exeter with half the services going on to Paignton, that would be better than what the current timetable provides.

That may just be enough to free up enough 221's to run in pairs to replace the HST's, if all the Manchester Paignton services are currently run by 221's. Although it would more likely enable XC to strengthen more of their other services.

The eagle eyed among you would have spotted that the above leaves 3 units as spares, which is possiblely a bit to generous, however that could allow some trains to be lengthened to 9 coaches on key sections.

 

[northwichcat]

The franchise agreement was 44 5-car trains capable of 125mph. I can't see these being anything other than bimodes.

32 bi-mode for North TPE and 12 electric for Manchester Airport to Scotland and Liverpool to Glasgow via Preston.

 

[TheKnightWho]

32 bi-mode for North TPE and 12 electric for Manchester Airport to Scotland and Liverpool to Glasgow via Preston.

What all of us have forgotten is the tilting requirement for the WCML services. Mini-Pendolinos? Voyagers? The latter would be a shame since they're DEMUs, but I'm not sure the former can be guaranteed yet, and project Thor is not making a comeback.