This is something I've wondered for a while. What is the correct procedure to follow after a SPAD? Does the train continue to its final destination or will it be terminated at the next station?
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SPAD Procedure
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156441
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Very much depends on the circumstances and train operator.
Following the SPAD the driver will contact the signaller (or vice versa) and complete a standard form over the phone.
The last question on that form is something along the lines of 'is the driver fit to continue'. Obviously a no in that box and it's game over.
The signaller then gets hold of the train operators control room to ask what they would like doing with the train and driver.
For my company any drivers <2 years experience or already being monitored due to an incident will be relieved of duty immediately.
Most other times the driver would take the train to its destination or if passing another one of our depots and be relieved there.
That's the basic process. There are many variables and it will change operator to operator.
Following the SPAD the driver will contact the signaller (or vice versa) and complete a standard form over the phone.
The last question on that form is something along the lines of 'is the driver fit to continue'. Obviously a no in that box and it's game over.
The signaller then gets hold of the train operators control room to ask what they would like doing with the train and driver.
For my company any drivers <2 years experience or already being monitored due to an incident will be relieved of duty immediately.
Most other times the driver would take the train to its destination or if passing another one of our depots and be relieved there.
That's the basic process. There are many variables and it will change operator to operator.
Juniper Driver
Established Member
Ha! Shows how much I know.
I know it's a straight contact the signalman (or he tells you I guess).I actually thought it was a straight off/Train out of service or proceed to suitable location.Dont think they'd let you continue too far.
mbreckers
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I once read that if you pass a red on the tube, your shift was immediately over for the rest of the day
BestWestern
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If we are talking SPAD rather than SPAR then it is quite unusual for the implicated driver to take the train to its destination. The most I have seen is moving the train to a slightly better operational position but even thats quite rare.
Supercoss
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paperwork paperwork, all SPADs are 'alleged' until proven otherwise.
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/Form RT3189 Iss 12-13.pdf
and the next level
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/Form RT3119-A Iss 7.pdf
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/Form RT3189 Iss 12-13.pdf
and the next level
http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/Form RT3119-A Iss 7.pdf
Sunset route
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As said aready, these are not counted as SPADs, but operation incidents going down to the fault, failure or mistake that caused it.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
A few years ago I was at a "busy InterCity station" and was watching an HST prepare for departure to London. It looked like a normal departure but just seconds after starting it stopped again very sharply.
Looking to see what had happened, there were a number of staff around near the front of the train and some kind of heavy discussion was taking place with driver and a senior looking station bod was pointing at the signal ( the front of the train had gone past it ).
Yes - it was a good old fashioned "ding ding and away" SPAD. The train resumed towards London after 10 - 15 minutes with a manually flagged despatch, but I don't think it had the original driver on board. The station in question does have a reasonably large driver depot, so I suspect a relief driver was immediately available.
Looking to see what had happened, there were a number of staff around near the front of the train and some kind of heavy discussion was taking place with driver and a senior looking station bod was pointing at the signal ( the front of the train had gone past it ).
Yes - it was a good old fashioned "ding ding and away" SPAD. The train resumed towards London after 10 - 15 minutes with a manually flagged despatch, but I don't think it had the original driver on board. The station in question does have a reasonably large driver depot, so I suspect a relief driver was immediately available.
bramling
Veteran Member
Not exactly.
The driver will be taken off the train at the next crew relief point. Although what happens if no relief is available is open to interpretation, some managers will allow the train to run a bit longer, others will stable the train even if it causes a cancellation. If it can quickly be proven that the incident was the result of an infrastructure fault or signaller error then there's no reason to take the driver off, except perhaps briefly to allow them to submit a report.
The shift as such most certainly isn't over, as following a SPAD the driver will be interviewed by a manager. One might be lucky if either the driver's or manager's shift timings don't allow enough time for this (bear in mind the interview will likely last anything between 45 mins and 2 hours, and the manager will need time before starting the interview to commence investigating and review whatever resources are available to get some idea what may have happened). If the interview is deferred until the next day under such circumstances, the driver may be told they can go home -- but in my experience this is one rare situation where most drivers would probably rather not have the early finish!
Depending on various circumstances, the driver can be off the train for anything between a day and several weeks. Generally if it's an experienced driver and the root-cause is quickly identifiable, the driver can be put back on the trains pretty quickly - all that's needed is a follow-up interview (where human factors will be dealt with in more detail, and the first interview will be reviewed to see if anything has been missed) and an action-plan agreed. A less experienced driver will be seen fairly quickly, but may be longer before they go back to normal duties as the likelihood is they will be given some form of additional coaching as part of their action plan.
Things will drag on rather longer if the driver has a bad history, as it's possible the person will be referred to "case conference", where their overall history will be reviewed - at this level we're now into having to obtain union representation, having to wait for all paperwork to be completed with i's dotted and t's crossed, and having to take a longer time out of management's diary. Likewise, if there's any hint that correct procedures haven't been followed, the disciplinary process will be followed, which again takes time for paperwork to be completed etc. The whole process will take longer if a weekend or holiday period (eg Christmas) is involved simply because the relevant managers are less likely to be immediately available. Whilst off the train, the driver will generally be sitting around in the messroom, which isn't good for anyone.
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I wonder why they don't put them on gardening leave? As you said, having them sit around the mess room doesn't do anyone any good at all.
bramling
Veteran Member
Garden leave generally only happens if it's being referred to disciplinary.
I suppose the benefit of having the person sitting around in the messroom is they can be called at a moment's notice should a manager wish to see them for the next stage of the process, or whatever. They also can be used for minor errands, e.g. taking paperwork from one depot to another, going to pick up CCTV downloads etc. If the weather's nice, some may be given the option to use up some annual leave days!
Signaller does not contact train operator but passes details to his / her Network Rail Control and they liase with TOC as to what will happen to driver and train.
Some of our Signallers have direct contact with platform staff. They could directly speak with staff on the ground to make a decision.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Platform staff would not make a decision about a driver who had suffered a SPAR. That can only be made by Control.
If a a staff member became aware of a Driver who clearly looked shaken up after a SPAR/SPAD and they had direct contact with the Signaller then they can pass that information on. The Signaller can, will, and has, made a decision directly to take a Driver off. I can tell you for a fact that Signallers with direct contact with platform staff use their information to make decisions.
It is one of our first responsibilities. We must look out for each other. I can tell you for a FACT it happens at my location.
contrad!ction
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SPADs (i.e the old cat A type) are completely out of our hands as signallers, that decision is taken by our/TOC control and they tell us what's exactly what they want to happen with regards to relief. (Although the rule book allows us to move a train to do the form as far as I'm concerned the train doesn't move until I've got the information for the form and I've got control's authority).
SPARs are a bit more of a grey area. I will always put the onus on the driver and ask very clearly 'driver will you be alright to continue?'. If they say yes then ultimately that's all I need to hear as a signaller - I trust a driver to make a professional judgement on their own abilities following an incident.
(It's also worth saying that it's a very difficult assessment to make as a signaller who could be 50 miles away, some people sound nervous on the phone whenever you speak to them
)LBSCR Times
Member
On a TOC that appears in the news too often, then with a SPAD (not a SPAR), the driver is removed at the first available location, usually the next station, but that decision is no longer made by the TOC Control but the relevant on-call CDM.
Depending on the circumstances, the units have to have a functional brake test too, unless the driver admits their error, in writing.
Depending on the circumstances, the units have to have a functional brake test too, unless the driver admits their error, in writing.
That's the crappy thing about the railway. The buck gets passed and nobody accepts responsibility. The Driver said OK, so I let him continue
I have less trust in a Driver to make a professional decision after a SPAR/SPAD or any incident than I have in the Sig. to make an informed decision. Once you have an incident of any form you really aren't in a good frame of mind, your judgement is skewed. I have lost count of the numbers of signals gone back on me, (one quite bad recently) and I have made the decision to come off a few times. Each time, my line manager has questioned my judgement and pulled me up on cancelling the service and costing the company in terms of delays. I honestly believe that Drivers are put in akward situations and some will feel a lot of pressure to keep the service running. That single question about being Ok to continue is you guys putting that pressure on us to make the decision. Its way to easy to say yes and continue because of the pressure.
(It's also worth saying that it's a very difficult assessment to make as a signaller who could be 50 miles away, some people sound nervous on the phone whenever you speak to them
Not really a funny situation in all honesty and, as I said, I know more than a few incidents where the Signaller has made the decision to halt all services and stop the Driver from continuing from either the sound of their voice over the radio or because of the serious nature of what just happened.
We have a few places where there is a good relationship with station staff and the box. Oddly a few nights ago I had the Sig trying to terminate my conversation with him regarding an incident because the platform staff were trying to call him.
As I said, I can say for 100% fact that on a recent SPAD the Driver was stopped by the Signaller and was told out right he could not move his unit. Control were not advised. Train stopped and held where it was. Driver escorted from the unit.
contrad!ction
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That's the crappy thing about the railway. The buck gets passed and nobody accepts responsibility. The Driver said OK, so I let him continue
I have lost count of the numbers of signals gone back on me, (one quite bad recently) and I have made the decision to come off a few times. Each time, my line manager has questioned my judgement and pulled me up on cancelling the service and costing the company in terms of delays. I honestly believe that Drivers are put in akward situations and some will feel a lot of pressure to keep the service running. That single question about being Ok to continue is you guys putting that pressure on us to make the decision. Its way to easy to say yes and continue because of the pressure.
I agree totally, and unfortunately those same pressures are on us as well. We can have shift managers and above (including my line manager and their manager) stood behind us whilst we're dealing with incidents like this and in exactly the same way you're pulled up on delaying stuff, we are too, in real time - (another reason why I think we should do collaborative training together, do regular box visits/cab rides etc...)
It's a very difficult position to be put in as a signaller, and if I wasn't 100% or the driver says I don't know/not sure/erm I wouldn't hesitate in pulling a driver off (in the kindest way possible) - the last thing I want to do is somehow coerce a driver into continuing if they don't feel up to it because they feel like they'll get blamed for delays later.
However, I have no psychological or trauma management training - so without asking you guys directly have I really got the proper tools to be able to make an informed judgement as to whether you're alright to go or not? I'm not a driver so I have no idea what's it's like to be involved in a SPAD/SPAR or whatever else from your perspective, and I do sympathise a lot (honest!)
It's got me thinking though (worryingly...) - as a driver, what would I be asking you in an ideal world?
I know this is a very serious topic, but that made my inner schoolchild giggle.
In an ideal world you would get the necessities out the way first then talk to the Driver like a normal human being.
It's difficult for both sides, worse when its because the signal has reverted, as you can have some very very awkward conversations.
The litigious and liability culture has had a negative impact that's for sure. The times where I have heard of the Signaller making the decision I have been in full support. You have no real ulterior motive other than safety. You don't know the Drivers personally or have any prejudgements about his history or who he is. Name, Depot, Unit number. It is one of those times where you need someone outside of TOC control or TOC management to make the decision. Its more black and white.
What I'd like to see is more specific rules rather than the current grey area. That way the decision making process is functional, rather than emotive or financial.
I'd like there to be a form/questionnaire that can be gone through to make that process simple. "Are you fit to continue" is just part of the blame culture and serves little purpose other than to shift liability.
Going through a Red, on plain line at linespeed is freaky but not much of a bother. Going through Red at a junction is scary and can really affect you. Going past a Red and seeing a unit come across the junction is life affirming.
Those with better insight to psychological affects should draw something up. I told my line manager that it should be mandatory for a Driver to be relived if they pass a Red for whatever reason. Chain of care is offered but then you have to sign/make a declaration you refused it !
Neither of us are qualified to make an assessment but the Driver must declare they are fit or not. I think in the most part, it comes down to experience. I've been driving for long enough that I have seen Drivers agree to continue and then have an incident a few stops later. (you can guess who got blamed) I have no doubt that you guys and gals have experience with dealing with Drivers over the radio and can tell if they sound a little off, or even a little angry.
"The Signaller pulled me off, at first I was a little ****ed off but when I got back to depot I was glad in retrospect." Almost verbatim for one incident I recall.
I recall one I had where I passed the Red and told the Signaller I was Ok to continue to XXXX but no further (depot location where I could easily be relieved). I had passengers and acted in their interest and acted professionally. I asked the Signaller to contact control and let them know. All was agreed. I drove relaxed and knowing I was going to be relived put my mind at ease. Was I relieved ? NO ! The unit went ECS into the sidings, trains cancelled for the rest of my diagram, pass back to depot, in the office with line manager.
Another instance I came off at the end of the trip. Quick cuppa to settle nerves and get my head back in the game. Bosh, back in my unit like nothing happened.
Its impossible to tell if they affect you, until its too late.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Sorry, but that is rubbish.
Signallers make no decision on whether the driver continues after a SPAR, we just report to Network Rail Control who pass it to the Operator and they make the decision.
Platform staff would NOT make the decision either.
The only thing a signaller may do is pass the decision made by Control on to the driver, but in my experience that will be done directly by the TOC Control phoning the driver.
backontrack
Established Member
You see - it differs between TOCs.
contrad!ction
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Agreed on both parts. There's a lot of pressure on our side to cover ourselves for things that in an ideal world shouldn't be necessary - but unfortunately is.
It would be good to have an independant contact number (people trained in assessing trauma/asking the correct questions etc...) separate from the TOCs/NR that you guys would call who can then make an assessment on whether you're ok to continue, similar to the fatality hotline or validium.
(We can't really win though, if we're considered to be too informal or waffle on we'll get done for poor comms - which on the one hand is fine, but in situations like this can make things a bit robotic)
Cheers for that, interesting stuff. I'd never really considered it like that to be honest.
And it'll most likely be you that's blamed when it does, sadly.
Say what you wish, doesn't change the FACT it has happened.
Maybe it doesn't happen in your box but three of my local stations have direct contact with the Signaller. I can relay at least one incident where the Driver said he was ok to continue but a member of platform spoke to the Signaller and the Driver was removed. I can also tell you for a FACT that at least 2 serious SPADS that I know of the Signaller has said the Driver cannot continue. Both those Drivers are known to me personally.
If I go through a Signal at Danger that has reverted, It is me who makes the decision. If I decide not to drive. NOBODY can overrule me. They can overrule my decision to drive but not when I refuse. Each time I have had a SPAR (due to reversion) I have never had a conversation with control and often, the first time control hear about it is when I tell them.
Typically I get. "You ok to continue ?" "Yes Signaller" "ok, please wait for a proceed aspect"
Don't even fill out a 3185 some days.
Sunset route
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Sounds pretty much like the railway in our area, signal reverts to red for what ever reason. We speak with the driver and if they are ok to continue, send them on their way then report to control via the shift manager.
Agree.
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