Southport to Wigan Electrification

[Bletchleyite]

To me the Atherton line would seem a good candidate for Metrolink-ing. If that was carried out, the Southports would logically run via Bolton (hence under the wires) and the Kirkbys terminate at Wallgate.

 

[Mathew S]

To me the Atherton line would seem a good candidate for Metrolink-ing. If that was carried out, the Southports would logically run via Bolton (hence under the wires) and the Kirkbys terminate at Wallgate.

Manchester - Wigan is way too long for Metrolink. With 4tph planned under the new Northern timetable you wouldn't even gain much in terms of service frequency and an hour on a Metrolink tram would be even worse than a pacer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester - Wigan is way too long for Metrolink. With 4tph planned under the new Northern timetable you wouldn't even gain much in terms of service frequency and an hour on a Metrolink tram would be even worse than a pacer.

It would be a good way to affordably electrify it and to get rid of more filthy DMUs. It's little different to Merseyrail to Chester, the concepts are very similar.

FWIW Manchester to Rochdale via Oldham is about 14 miles (and yes, people do do that journey despite the train being quicker). Manchester to Wigan is 17 miles. Not much different.

 

[Mathew S]

It would be a good way to affordably electrify it and to get rid of more filthy DMUs. It's little different to Merseyrail to Chester, the concepts are very similar.

You'd have to equip it with much higher capacity 'trams' with far more comfortable seating, and toilets... by which point you might as well just do the job properly. If a tram/train system were possible then you could probably run that as far as Walkden or Atherton, and then down into Leigh. But as for Metrolink-ing the whole route, to the current Metrolink spec, just no.

The only way I can think of around it would be upping the number of Wigan-Manchester via Bolton services to 4 or 5 tph to maintain capacity, and unless I'm completely wrong there's not the capacity to do that.

And that's without getting into the problems of what to do between Crows Nest and Wigan to accommodate both systems.

The whole thing is a massive non-starter.

 

[snowball]

AIUI, if Lostock-Wigan electrification goes ahead, the stretch into Wallgate will not be wired as part of this, only into North Western- for which Platforms 1-3 are available (could be wrong).

According to the Enhancements Delivery Plan, the work on Lostock-Wigan electrification includes examination of the feasibility of including Wallgate. I imagine the bridge with the buildings on it is the key here. Does it have, or can it be given, the headroom? Is it falling down anyway?

 

[Mathew S]

According to the Enhancements Delivery Plan, the work on Lostock-Wigan electrification includes examination of the feasibility of including Wallgate. I imagine the bridge with the buildings on it is the key here. Does it have, or can it be given, the headroom? Is it falling down anyway?

Certainly not falling down. It's got the main bus route into the town centre, several three story buildings, a taxi rank, and a railway station on top of it.
No chance whatsoever of giving the headroom by raising the bridge, so you'd have to lower the track, and I'm not sure that's doable either. There's already a marked dip in the track as you go under the bridge where it's presumably been lowered before, so I can't hskrp thinking that lowering it any further would cause problems with flooding.

 

[Philip]

If the line to Skelmersdale does get built, I'd say the best solution would be a half-hourly Northern service to Manchester originating there; using the two Atherton line stopping services. Merseyrail can then run an hourly or half-hourly service from Skem to Kirkby and Liverpool, hopefully with good connections with the Northern services. An Altrincham-style arrangement would be good for the new station, say with Northern staffing it but easy cross-platform connections between the two separate service providers.

There is this notion that Skelmersdale only needs good transport connections to Liverpool but with Manchester only about 20 miles away it would be daft not to look at strengthening the transport connections to there as well.

 

[snowball]

Certainly not falling down. It's got the main bus route into the town centre, several three story buildings, a taxi rank, and a railway station on top of it.

And steel props underneath, at least when this picture was taken (date unknown). I haven't been there in recent years myself.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8503/29446536922_78b91c5108_c.jpg

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could those have been added to allow heavier lorries rather than because it was falling down?

 

[Mathew S]

And steel props underneath, at least when this picture was taken (date unknown). I haven't been there in recent years myself.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8503/29446536922_78b91c5108_c.jpg

Yes...

Could those have been added to allow heavier lorries rather than because it was falling down?

... and yes.

 

[snowball]

It was once the A49 but has been bypassed by a new dual carriageway 300m to one side so it's no longer a major through route. It looks like this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5...4!1sxpr5dJUITP5v1zwXSYGHZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Mathew S]

It was once the A49 but has been bypassed by a new dual carriageway 300m to one side so it's no longer a major through route. It looks like this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5...4!1sxpr5dJUITP5v1zwXSYGHZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It is a route heavily used by a lot of traffic, especially buses and vans/HGVs accessing the town centre. Take it from me, I live here.
It is the major bus route in and out of Wigan (for which there is no practical diversion), and the main access to the town centre for deliveries, taxis, and on street parking.

 

[CdBrux]

the perfect place for discontinuous electrification to avoid places that are too difficult / disruptive and use a bimode, in this case battery?
Of course that would be a disgraceful government cop out though...

 

[WatcherZero]

The steel props under Wallgate were added because cracks were found in the bridge supports in the tunnel in 2014, it was declared unsafe for traffic after an inspection and closed until the emergency supports were added. Those stell supports were only supposed to be temporary but nothing on the horizon for a more permanent fix. All the shops on the bridge are owned by NR.

 

[Mathew S]

The steel props under Wallgate were added because cracks were found in the bridge.

Indeed. To clarify on my slightly flippant answer earlier, without the steelwork the bridge would have required a strict weight limit to avoid, well, you can imagine... Given how Wallgate (the road rather than the station) is used, imposing a weight limit would have been a pretty dire outcome, so supporting the bridge like this means it's strong enough for the buses/HGVs which use it.

 

[PR1Berske]

Indeed. To clarify on my slightly flippant answer earlier, without the steelwork the bridge would have required a strict weight limit to avoid, well, you can imagine... Given how Wallgate (the road rather than the station) is used, imposing a weight limit would have been a pretty dire outcome, so supporting the bridge like this means it's strong enough for the buses/HGVs which use it.

And as I know from many visits to my family in Winstanley, the infamous road network in central Wigan makes diverting heavy traffic away from the stations almost impossible. You're absolutely right, traffic flow on Wallgate is busy and heavy. Restrictions would need serious planning, both on road and rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All the shops on the bridge are owned by NR.

That I didn't know. So it could, if necessary, be demolished and rebuilt, though that would be costly.

 

[Rob F]

I used to be positive about Skem being built, with electric trains in mind, then I read this forum and get cold water poured over everything.

Past posters are quite right, of course. Cooperation between Merseytravel, TfGM, and LCC is highly unlikely. As with so many plans for improving the railways, it crumbles at the first poke.

Some posters on this forum excel at pouring cold water on ANYTHING other than the status quo. The point has been made on here, more than once, that if one suggestion or other was such a good idea, the railway would be doing it already, as if NR and the TOCs are transport bodies honed to perfection and nothing could possibly improve on them or what they do. Meanwhile, back in the real world........

Rob

 

[B&I]

It would be a good way to affordably electrify it and to get rid of more filthy DMUs. It's little different to Merseyrail to Chester, the concepts are very similar.

FWIW Manchester to Rochdale via Oldham is about 14 miles (and yes, people do do that journey despite the train being quicker). Manchester to Wigan is 17 miles. Not much different.

The customer experience on even a currebt Merseyrail EMU from Liverpool to Chester is day and nigjt different to rattling along for the comparable journey time from central Manchester to Altrincham. This said, at least the 4 track formation on the Atherton line would make it less destructive than other tramstitutions, though the trams would need street running through Wigan to reach any sensible terminus without sodding up the Wallgate through lines.

And if you're going to do this, Kirkby-Wallgate really should be added ro Merseyrail, either using the new trains' battery functions. Or in the longer term, by wiring Wigan-Fazakerly (and beyond) at 25 kv so it can be used as an electric freight route to Liveroool docks as well. In those circumstances, the residual w heavy rail tracks through Atherton would be very useful as part of a transpennine freight route, particularly if the old Wigan bypass route was reopened and Calder Valley got electrified, subject to getting the frieghts through or round Victoria somehow (curse whoever closed Bolton-Middleton Junction).

 

[B&I]

If the line to Skelmersdale does get built, I'd say the best solution would be a half-hourly Northern service to Manchester originating there; using the two Atherton line stopping services. Merseyrail can then run an hourly or half-hourly service from Skem to Kirkby and Liverpool, hopefully with good connections with the Northern services. An Altrincham-style arrangement would be good for the new station, say with Northern staffing it but easy cross-platform connections between the two separate service providers.

There is this notion that Skelmersdale only needs good transport connections to Liverpool but with Manchester only about 20 miles away it would be daft not to look at strengthening the transport connections to there as well.

Or this is another way of doing it. What's the feasibility of a parkway station where the branch from the current line into a downtown Skem station would begin, enabling e0asy access to the M58 and transfers there too?

 

[snowball]

Or this is another way of doing it. What's the feasibility of a parkway station where the branch from the current line into a downtown Skem station would begin, enabling e0asy access to the M58 and transfers there too?

The existing Rainford station looks to be only about half a mile away from where I imagine the SW corner of the triangular junction would be.

 

[B&I]

To return to the original post, apart from Wallgate, would the Southport line be very hard to electrify as a follow-on from Wigan-Bolton?

 

[B&I]

The existing Rainford station looks to be only about half a mile away from where I imagine the SW corner of the triangular junction would be.

Probably not much point then

 

[WatcherZero]

To return to the original post, apart from Wallgate, would the Southport line be very hard to electrify as a follow-on from Wigan-Bolton?

Probably not no, its all flat open farmland. Just over a dozen level crossings (some of which NR would probably like to close) around 3 road bridges, 1 rail bridge and the M6 passing overhead.

 

[Philip]

Would it be worth spending so much on electrifying to Southport since it seems the long term plan is for Southport line services to carry on to Rochdale and onto the Calder Valley? Even if at some point in the long-distant future they want to remove DMUs from Wallgate, chances are by then either bi-mode or battery-powered technology will have developed to such an extent so as to make them both viable options.

 

[Ploughman]

Probably not no, its all flat open farmland. Just over a dozen level crossings (some of which NR would probably like to close) around 3 road bridges, 1 rail bridge and the M6 passing overhead.

Ground conditions for masts may not be good.
A number of houses in the area between Meols Cop and Burscough are built on concrete rafts while older buildings show signs of tilt, some quite severe.

 

[B&I]

Would it be worth spending so much on electrifying to Southport since it seems the long term plan is for Southport line services to carry on to Rochdale and onto the Calder Valley? Even if at some point in the long-distant future they want to remove DMUs from Wallgate, chances are by then either bi-mode or battery-powered technology will have developed to such an extent so as to make them both viable options.

Southport to Manchester by battery? By the time that is feasible, I suspect rail's main competitor will be hoverpacks. Also, is there any reason for a Southport-Calder Valley service beyond it being a neat pairing of diesel services currently terminating at Victoria? And is Calder Valley much behind Southport in the queue for electrification?

 

[LDECRexile]

Southport to Manchester by battery? By the time that is feasible, I suspect rail's main competitor will be hoverpacks.

On pure battery you may be right, but see Ian Walmsley's article in Modern Railways, February 2019, pp36-8, especially bottom of p37 onwards. Mr Walmsley is a battery sceptic on many grounds, but he reckons the new Class 93 tri-mode locomotives have the technology cracked for running on and off juice. Apply the techniques to redundant electric stock, spruce it up and hey-ho off we go.

Also, is there any reason for a Southport-Calder Valley service beyond it being a neat pairing of diesel services currently terminating at Victoria? And is Calder Valley much behind Southport in the queue for electrification?

The Southport-Calder Valley service exists. I travelled on it last week from Southport to Brighouse and back a couple of days later. My aims were to revisit old haunts and to go on to London using the Grand Central service, which was jaw-dropping. £25 each way First Class from Halifax to Kings Cross with my Fogeypass (next to nowt Standard Class), attentive, pleasant service from customer-focused staff, spotless, comfy, on time: Blimey!

I travelled from Southport to Wigan yesterday and half noticed what could be platform extension work at a couple of stations (I was reading, so not paying proper attention, mea culpa.) Are stations being standardised to 4-car length to accommodate Class 769s?

 

[AMD]

I travelled from Southport to Wigan yesterday and half noticed what could be platform extension work at a couple of stations (I was reading, so not paying proper attention, mea culpa.) Are stations being standardised to 4-car length to accommodate Class 769s?

The platforms are being extended for the 195 fleet.

 

[Elecman]

I don’t think the ORE would countenance 3rd Rail to Wigan under any circumstances,plus I think an additional feeder may be required