Southport to Wigan Electrification

[shakey1961]

While Googling some stuff about Merseyrail, I came across a Wikipedia page about them. One of the sections was about future plans, which linked to:

https://web.archive.org/web/2014101...workrail.co.uk/networkrus_electrification.pdf

Option D23.6: Electrify Ormskirk to Preston
and Wigan to Southport with new chord at Burscough. Run through services from
Liverpool to Preston, replacing Ormskirk to Preston shuttle.

This scheme was ranked as tier 6 on the basis of the conversion ratio. This ranking suggests that the scheme is unlikely to provide high value for money, unless:

• the scheme could be delivered for less than roundly £100k per single track km

or

• the new pattern of service delivers significant net benefits.

As usual it's probably all been scrapped, but are they ANY plans at all to upgrade that line?

I'm led to believe Southport to Wigan aren't going to see any of the new fleet of Northern Trains any time soon.

Annoying

 

[Ianno87]

Nothing committed or funded.

I think it probably made an electrification RUS at some point as a recommended scheme, but nothing more than that.

Wallgate station road bridge would be...interesting. As would segregating AC and DC systems at Southport.

 

[kevconnor]

It's possible it may have made it as far as the long list for TfN previous electrification 'wish list' which itself must be looking more and more like a work of science fiction the more electrification has been cut back.

Edit

I have just check and it made it as one of the twelve tier one priority routes which should be considered for electrification within the 2015 report commissioned by TfN. But since then much has changed in the landscape an many of even the current schemes are being either delayed, cancelled, or reduced in scope.

 

[Mathew S]

While Googling some stuff about Merseyrail, I came across a Wikipedia page about them. One of the sections was about future plans, one of which said

"Southport to Wigan has been identified by Network Rail as a route where electrification in conjunction with extension of electrification from Ormskirk to Preston and reinstatement of the Burscough Curves would enable new patterns of passenger service to operate. In March 2015 the Electrification Task force placed the electrifying the line from Southport to Salford Crescent via Wigan in the Tier 1 priority category."

As usual it's probably all been scrapped, but are they ANY plans at all to upgrade that line?

I'm led to believe Southport to Wigan aren't going to see any of the new fleet of Northern Trains any time soon.

Annoying

The Southport line is likely to see 170s on the new Calder Valley services, or was the last that I heard.
As for electrification, I think I've seen the same document. It's very much a wish list of things they'd like rather than any kind of commitment.
If it's the same doc that I think it is there's also a suggestion of extending third rail to Wigan Wallgate.
To be honest, I can't see electrification happening on either route in a million years.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Network Electrification Refresh RUS that was in production for the best part of this decade was never finished far as I can see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As would segregating AC and DC systems at Southport.

Southport would be no more difficult than Euston. Indeed, unlike Euston, as the station is way bigger than it needs to be it would be possible to completely segregate, i.e. have separate platforms for OHLE and third rail, making it even easier. Operations there were completely segregated for a period of time in the 1990s, Regional Railways even had a separate entrance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's the same doc that I think it is there's also a suggestion of extending third rail to Wigan Wallgate.

Third rail into the Wigan Wallgate bay would to me make a lot of sense.

 

[Mathew S]

Third rail into the Wigan Wallgate bay would to me make a lot of sense.

It would make enormous sense. Link the two lines at Kirkby together and run 3rd rail into the bay at Wallgate. Huge improvement on the Kirkby line and make it an extension of Merseyrail.
It'll never happen because 1) it would require cooperation between Merseytravel and TfGM, and 2) TfGM would never agree to Pemberton & Orrell (within GM) losing the direct service to/from Manchester.

 

[WatcherZero]

No it wouldn't make much sense to force a change in Wigan, particularly as there is a school and college run on that section of line. Makes more sense to have the change in Skelmersdale as unlike Kirkby that should be a proper demand anchor from both sides with the industrial estates.

 

[Mathew S]

No it wouldn't make much sense to force a change in Wigan, particularly as there is a school and college run on that section of line. Makes more sense to have the change in Skelmersdale as unlike Kirkby that should be a proper demand anchor from both sides with the industrial estates.

It's not that many years ago that there was a change in Wigan as well as Kirkby. In an ideal world, I agree, but I can't see the Skem option ever happening either for the same basic reasons: cooperation between the two PTEs. Also, remember Skem is in Lancashire, so neither Merseytravel nor TfGM have any incentive to enable that link over projects within their own regions.

Finally, and this applies to all the schemes mentioned, where's the money going to come from?

 

[Geeves]

If you combined Merseyrails 4 trains an hour into Wigan's combined services per hour from there to Manchester you would have a very popular and easy to use service. I doubt people would mind changing if they knew the onward journeys were so easy compared to what is currently an extremely poor service to Kirkby. Cross platform or a 5 minute walk to North Western.

Yes please.

 

[Mathew S]

If you combined Merseyrails 4 trains an hour into Wigan's combined services per hour from there to Manchester you would have a very popular and easy to use service. I doubt people would mind changing if they knew the onward journeys were so easy compared to what is currently a very poor service to Kirkby. Cross platform or a 5 minute walk to North Western.

Yes please.

I couldn't agree more. Living within a few minutes walk of said line, and commuting into Manchester, I'd benefit as much as anyone and more than most.
Never gonna happen, though, sadly.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Third rail into the Wigan Wallgate bay would to me make a lot of sense.

It would make enormous sense. Link the two lines at Kirkby together and run 3rd rail into the bay at Wallgate. Huge improvement on the Kirkby line and make it an extension of Merseyrail.
It'll never happen because 1) it would require cooperation between Merseytravel and TfGM, and 2) TfGM would never agree to Pemberton & Orrell (within GM) losing the direct service to/from Manchester.

No, it's a bad idea. One of the huge benefits of the current Merseyrail setup is the network being isolated (operationally) from everywhere else. Link the Kirkby line to Wigan and you start to run the risk of importing delays from there onto the Northern lines. Even worse if you go beyond Wigan. And yes, no way that Pemberton and Orrell should lose their direct service to Manchester. It's a healthy and growing commuter and shopping market.

No it wouldn't make much sense to force a change in Wigan, particularly as there is a school and college run on that section of line. Makes more sense to have the change in Skelmersdale as unlike Kirkby that should be a proper demand anchor from both sides with the industrial estates.

Spot on. The college traffic to Orrell is nearly all from points east, from as far away as Walkden.

It's not that many years ago that there was a change in Wigan as well as Kirkby. In an ideal world, I agree, but I can't see the Skem option ever happening either for the same basic reasons: cooperation between the two PTEs. Also, remember Skem is in Lancashire, so neither Merseytravel nor TfGM have any incentive to enable that link over projects within their own regions.

Finally, and this applies to all the schemes mentioned, where's the money going to come from?

The Skelmersdale scheme is very high up on Merseytravel's wish-list. If TfN gets sufficient teeth it would be an excellent project for them to take forward, creating a link to a decent size town with no current rail service but with strong demographic links in both directions, and that while not cheap would not be a mega-project either.

If you combined Merseyrails 4 trains an hour into Wigan's combined services per hour from there to Manchester you would have a very popular and easy to use service. I doubt people would mind changing if they knew the onward journeys were so easy compared to what is currently an extremely poor service to Kirkby. Cross platform or a 5 minute walk to North Western.

Yes please.

See above. But in any case would need considerable upgrade to the current rather meagre platform facilities at Wallgate. Note the demand from stations east of Rainford is nearly all eastward but from Rainford mostly westward; the Skelmersdale scheme preserves through services for all these in addition to bringing Skelmersdale into the network. If TfN can fund it I would expect it to be a real success. Skelmersdale is largely populated by Liverpudlian exiles but also has strong links to Wigan, indeed the bus route between Wigan and Skelmersdale was once the scene of a "bus war".

 

[WatcherZero]

Merseytravel is indeed highly supportive of the Skem scheme featuring it in their plans and contributing significant funds to the GRIP studies commisioned by Transport for Lancashire.

 

[Elecman]

Will the ORR permit the extension of the 3rd Rail to Skem never mind Wigan?

 

[AM9]

Will the ORR permit the extension of the 3rd Rail to Skem never mind Wigan?

Has it been decided whether the Class507/508 stock will be ac/DC?

 

[Eccles1983]

Theres no way merseyrail are daft enough to take on that route.

The freight terminal is an issue for a start, and upholland tunnel is another - the latter is going to need a fair bit of money spent on it soon enough as its bulging inwards, hence the psr of 30 on the up.

Also, it would take a important part of wallgates shunting ability away.

Its a crayon fest non starter I'm afraid

 

[Agent_Squash]

The new Merseyrail stock is dual voltage. 25kV would be more useful for the extension (apart from the cost!)

 

[Ianno87]

No, it's a bad idea. One of the huge benefits of the current Merseyrail setup is the network being isolated (operationally) from everywhere else. Link the Kirkby line to Wigan and you start to run the risk of importing delays from there onto the Northern lines.

Northern Line already has an operational interface with soemthing else at Hunts Cross West Jn.

Wigan isn't that big a deal, IMO. You're talking about a conflicting move across 4-5tph to get over Wallgate Jn and into the bay. Spent a little money and you could otpimise the track layout a bit better than at present. I'm not sure sticking all 4tph through to Wigan would be necessary; 2tph would suffice and still be a marked imprpvement on today.

Admittedly, you're constrained to only 2 tracks (I think) by the WCML overbridge, so doubt that would be easy to resolve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it wouldn't make much sense to force a change in Wigan, particularly as there is a school and college run on that section of line. Makes more sense to have the change in Skelmersdale as unlike Kirkby that should be a proper demand anchor from both sides with the industrial estates.

That is also a fair point - moving the junction to a new island-platformed station at Skem would make sense, mothballing the direct line or keeping it for freight.

OTOH, if you could design the Skem line so it wasn't a terminus, you could extend Merseyrail to Wigan via Skem. A quick change, cross-platform in both directions as the bay is in the middle, would not be all that bad a thing, and the Kirkby line is operationally inconvenient as it's 1tph in a land of 2tph. And I'm unconvinced the demand from Rainford Jn, Orrell and Pemberton to Manchester (or indeed anywhere else) is going to be *that* high - anyone else is going to have a change anyway, it's just a question of where.

 

[Bletchleyite]

See above. But in any case would need considerable upgrade to the current rather meagre platform facilities at Wallgate

Would it? It's an island platform, there is a shelter and bogs. What more does a local station need? The idea of Merseyrail isn't to stack platforms full of SSP concessions, it's to move people off the platforms as quickly and frequently as possible.

Re the overbridge you could probably get away with coasting under it. You'd just have to have the main stopping point a bit further back along the platform to allow enough speed to be got up first. Or flatten it all, lower the track level and fix it that way.

 

[Ianno87]

Would it? It's an island platform, there is a shelter and bogs. What more does a local station need? The idea of Merseyrail isn't to stack platforms full of SSP concessions, it's to move people off the platforms as quickly and frequently as possible.

Re the overbridge you could probably get away with coasting under it. You'd just have to have the main stopping point a bit further back along the platform to allow enough speed to be got up first. Or flatten it all, lower the track level and fix it that way.

It's having a dead section immediately at the start of the gradient up to the WCML junction that would be tricky. You'd have to have a heck of a run-up to make sure.

 

[Mathew S]

It's having a dead section immediately at the start of the gradient up to the WCML junction that would be tricky. You'd have to have a heck of a run-up to make sure.

Where do you mean? If (and it's a massive if) any of these schemes were to go ahead, they wouldn't approach the WCML at all, affecting only the lines west of Wigan Wallgate.

 

[Eccles1983]

That is also a fair point - moving the junction to a new island-platformed station at Skem would make sense, mothballing the direct line or keeping it for freight.

OTOH, if you could design the Skem line so it wasn't a terminus, you could extend Merseyrail to Wigan via Skem. A quick change, cross-platform in both directions as the bay is in the middle, would not be all that bad a thing, and the Kirkby line is operationally inconvenient as it's 1tph in a land of 2tph. And I'm unconvinced the demand from Rainford Jn, Orrell and Pemberton to Manchester (or indeed anywhere else) is going to be *that* high - anyone else is going to have a change anyway, it's just a question of where.

The demand from them stations in the peaks is very large. Hence the awkward 4 car 156 that is usually allocated.

Even then they are quite full by the time you get to wallgate and it then becomes full and standing to manchester.

I am yet to see a reasonable reason to spend millions on a system that already works. And merseyrail would need to spend a fair bit of dough sourcing more units for the 4 tph that is being proposed. Its a decent 30 minute run to wigan from kirkby in the peaks.

 

[scrapy]

Whilst Orrell and Pemberton would loose direct links to Manchester, I'm sure that a much increased frequency and evening services would be a good trade off for this The Manchester market is restricted at the moment by people having to leave Manchester before 6pm to get home. Journey times to Manchester may even be shorter if timed to link with one of the new semi fast services.

Agreed that college students go to Orrell in from as far east as Walkden but they currently have to change trains in a morning to arrive before 9am. Students also come from as far Parbold/Burscough and Bolton as well and these manage to change trains.

 

[urbophile]

Extending Merseyrail to more distant places than at present would be a great mistake. Currently it functions as a city-region Metro service: the lines to Southport (within) and to Chester (outwith the city region) somewhat stretch that but beyond would create more problems (though, as an exception, Skem would solve some). Interrunning with longer distance lines would interfere with punctuality, and since none of the present or planned trains include toilets, there would be a comfort limit for passengers. There is plenty of scope for expanding Merseyrail, but by re-opening and extending lines within the region.

 

[PR1Berske]

I used to be positive about Skem being built, with electric trains in mind, then I read this forum and get cold water poured over everything.

Past posters are quite right, of course. Cooperation between Merseytravel, TfGM, and LCC is highly unlikely. As with so many plans for improving the railways, it crumbles at the first poke.

 

[Ianno87]

Where do you mean? If (and it's a massive if) any of these schemes were to go ahead, they wouldn't approach the WCML at all, affecting only the lines west of Wigan Wallgate.

The point heading out of Wallgate towards Manchester where the line climbs up to meet the WCML briefly at the south end of the North Western station platforms. AIUI, if Lostock-Wigan electrification goes ahead, the stretch into Wallgate will not be wired as part of this, only into North Western- for which Platforms 1-3 are available (could be wrong).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Extending Merseyrail to more distant places than at present would be a great mistake. Currently it functions as a city-region Metro service: the lines to Southport (within) and to Chester (outwith the city region) somewhat stretch that but beyond would create more problems (though, as an exception, Skem would solve some). Interrunning with longer distance lines would interfere with punctuality, and since none of the present or planned trains include toilets, there would be a comfort limit for passengers. There is plenty of scope for expanding Merseyrail, but by re-opening and extending lines within the region.

Skem/Wigan and Burscough Bridge (to some extent) are just completing something that was in the original plan but never completed. I don't think I would go any further out, and I don't think through services to Preston would be sensible; a connectional hub at Burscough Bridge makes more sense to me, as it more effectively connects West Lancashire to a range of local destinations.

 

[Mathew S]

The point heading out of Wallgate towards Manchester where the line climbs up to meet the WCML briefly at the south end of the North Western station platforms. AIUI, if Lostock-Wigan electrification goes ahead, the stretch into Wallgate will not be wired as part of this, only into North Western- for which Platforms 1-3 are available (could be wrong).

Yes, you are correct in what you say. The via Bolton services are all planned into North Western in the new timetable (assuming it happens as we expect), though, so it's not an issue. At the end of the day, unless the Atherton line is also going to be electrified, which it isn't, there's not a lot of point doing Southport or Kirkby since you'd still need to run on diesel all the way to Salford.
In practical terms, 3rd rail into the bay at Wallgate could work, because it's still a pretty much isolated system. Yes, you're intermingling with the Southports but that's only 2tph plus what would be 2tph ECS moves turning in the sidings past the bridge, and I don't think that's insurmountable.
That said, for all the reasons I've already mentioned, I really can't see any of this ever happening.