Southern on-board supervisor ticket checks

[pompeyfan]

Interesting that unofficial custom is for OBS to key on and stay keyed on against a red signal, when there is no route knowledge and I’d imagine no formal training in what a signal or an off indicator is.

I’m not against that idea to be fair, there has been SPADs before at conflicting junctions where the driver has shut up at departure time and just gone. You open a whole can of worms regarding safety critical though (colour blindness too!), and what if there’s degraded working and the driver needs to be talked past a signal at danger?

 

[Horizon22]

Does keying on mean that the door will not close if the driver decides to close the dooors?

The driver cannot close the doors with the key on. In early days of the OBS there was a lot of “OBS please contact driver”…

I am not sure on the comments about “until a proceed aspect remain keyed on”. There’s a cursory check for a few seconds and then key off unless someone is seen needing assistance or there’s a platform issue (anti-social behaviour, runners etc.)

They simply theoretically prevent DOO dispatch, but have no role in carrying it out

 

[KJCross1983]

I agree that they do not have a safety critical role but I understand that they are required to key in at a door at each station and step on the platform to check that there are no passengers requiring assistance. The key being recorded on ODMS. When the train is stopped at a red signal on the platform they do not key out until the signal clears. So it's not really true to say that they have no part in despatch. Whether this official I don't know but its certainly practise on the coastway at least.

That is not technology correct. An OBS should never leave a key on, when stopped at a Red Signal. At a station, an OBS should put their key on, step onto the platform watch everyone get on & off and help anyone who needs assistance. If no one left, then take their key off and carry out customer service on the train. You usually find the OBS that does leave their key on, is an ex conductor.

 

[43066]

The driver cannot close the doors with the key on. In early days of the OBS there was a lot of “OBS please contact driver”…

I am not sure on the comments about “until a proceed aspect remain keyed on”. There’s a cursory check for a few seconds and then key off unless someone is seen needing assistance or there’s a platform issue (anti-social behaviour, runners etc.)

They simply theoretically prevent DOO dispatch, but have no role in carrying it out

It sounds like a bit of a fudge, though. It really should be one thing or the other; what if the signal clears and the driver gets a wrong route indication, or the OBS reads across to another signal, keys off and the driver SPADs. Does the OBS take any share of the blame, or receive retraining etc.?

That is not technology correct. An OBS should never leave a key on, when stopped at a Red Signal. At a station, an OBS should put their key on, step onto the platform watch everyone get on & off and help anyone who needs assistance. If no one left, then take their key off and carry out customer service on the train. You usually find the OBS that does leave their key on, is an ex conductor.

That makes sense. If they’re being paid to be on board hosts only they really shouldn’t be responding to signal aspects in any way. Presumably they should really only be looking for wheelchairs - they shouldn’t (for example) be taking it upon themselves to delay trains because someone is still paying for a ticket at a ticket machine and shouts to them to wait.

 

[winks]

Anyone know the pay range for a OBS vs Conductor ?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I agree that they do not have a safety critical role but I understand that they are required to key in at a door at each station and step on the platform to check that there are no passengers requiring assistance. The key being recorded on ODMS. When the train is stopped at a red signal on the platform they do not key out until the signal clears. So it's not really true to say that they have no part in despatch. Whether this official I don't know but its certainly practise on the coastway at least.

The only reason to key on is to not get locked out of the train whilst checking the platform for anyone who needs assistance, it is not related to the dispatch, when I was trained we were told we had to key off at the 30 sec before departure point so as to not delay the train, that is regardless of the starting signal. If you think about it, that saves delay as once the signal changes the driver can close the doors and all will be already shut, but if a local door was keyed on then there's the wait for that to close.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

That is not technology correct. An OBS should never leave a key on, when stopped at a Red Signal. At a station, an OBS should put their key on, step onto the platform watch everyone get on & off and help anyone who needs assistance. If no one left, then take their key off and carry out customer service on the train. You usually find the OBS that does leave their key on, is an ex conductor.

Exactly that!

 

[KJCross1983]

Anyone know the pay range for a OBS vs Conductor ?

Current wages;

● OBS = £38,000 (Sundays included).
● Conductor = £34,000 (Sundays paid extra).

 

[Urban Gateline]

The driver cannot close the doors with the key on. In early days of the OBS there was a lot of “OBS please contact driver”…

I am not sure on the comments about “until a proceed aspect remain keyed on”. There’s a cursory check for a few seconds and then key off unless someone is seen needing assistance or there’s a platform issue (anti-social behaviour, runners etc.)

They simply theoretically prevent DOO dispatch, but have no role in carrying it out

Exactly what I was trained when carrying out the role!

 

[Mainsideman]

The only reason to key on is to not get locked out of the train whilst checking the platform for anyone who needs assistance, it is not related to the dispatch, when I was trained we were told we had to key off at the 30 sec before departure point so as to not delay the train, that is regardless of the starting signal. If you think about it, that saves delay as once the signal changes the driver can close the doors and all will be already shut, but if a local door was keyed on then there's the wait for that to close.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==


Exactly that!

And if you arrive in a platform after the 30 second point do you just not key on? Bit risky no?

 

[Urban Gateline]

And if you arrive in a platform after the 30 second point do you just not key on? Bit risky no?

If it's late running then you key on for as long as it takes to carry out the check for passengers needing assistance, which is usually as quick as passengers alight and board anyway.

 

[KJCross1983]

And if you arrive in a platform after the 30 second point do you just not key on? Bit risky no?

Splitting hairs now.

An OBS will still put their key on even if the train is running late. Again the OBS will watch the platform to see if anyone needs assistance and to watch passengers on & off the train. Once the OBS is happy, step back onto the train and key off. The driver will not usually close the doors untill he or she is happy the dispatch corridor is clear anyway and the OBS is back on the train.

 

[Mainsideman]

Anyone know what routes obs usually cover? I know there is no route knowledge required so can work any train? But which routes are more likely to have on obs checking tickets, compared to where ones you will never see one

 

[43066]

The only reason to key on is to not get locked out of the train whilst checking the platform for anyone who needs assistance, it is not related to the dispatch, when I was trained we were told we had to key off at the 30 sec before departure point so as to not delay the train, that is regardless of the starting signal. If you think about it, that saves delay as once the signal changes the driver can close the doors and all will be already shut, but if a local door was keyed on then there's the wait for that to close.

Thanks for clarifying - that makes a lot more sense.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Anyone know what routes obs usually cover? I know there is no route knowledge required so can work any train? But which routes are more likely to have on obs checking tickets, compared to where ones you will never see one

All of the "Mainline" routes and East/West Coastway & Redhill to Reigate, Epsom to Horsham. Only the "Metro" routes just have the Driver and then the Clapham to Watford and any 313 run service has a Conductor (313 only until the upcoming timetable change)

Regards the second part, it's very subjective, some are proactive and others not so much, you'd rarely see one checking north of Gatwick but they do have devices to check Oyster and Contactless should they wish to.

 

[43066]

All of the "Mainline" routes and East/West Coastway & Redhill to Reigate, Epsom to Horsham. Only the "Metro" routes just have the Driver and then the Clapham to Watford and any 313 run service has a Conductor (313 only until the upcoming timetable change)

Regards the second part, it's very subjective, some are proactive and others not so much, you'd rarely see one checking north of Gatwick but they do have devices to check Oyster and Contactless should they wish to.

Is there any financial incentive to check? If not, it’s hardly surprising that some don’t really bother.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Clapham to Watford and any 313 run service has a Conductor (313 only until the upcoming timetable change)

In addition to 171 services, of course.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Is there any financial incentive to check? If not, it’s hardly surprising that some don’t really bother.

Not for Oyster/Contactless, tickets are flat 50p commission no matter the value of the fare (I do wonder what would happen if it was for a PRIV ticket 50p or less!) Also no extra for scanning barcode/e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==

In addition to 171 services, of course.

Good point yes, the Ashford to Hastings/Brighton services!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Not for Oyster/Contactless, tickets are flat 50p commission no matter the value of the fare (I do wonder what would happen if it was for a PRIV ticket 50p or less!) Also no extra for scanning barcode/e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2023 ==


Good point yes, the Ashford to Hastings/Brighton services!

Just Ashford to Hastings/Eastbourne now, as it was cut back due to overcrowding around five or six years ago.

 

[RPI]

Is there any financial incentive to check? If not, it’s hardly surprising that some don’t really bother.

Surely the "incentive" is a salary, is in my job

 

[winks]

Current wages;

● OBS = £38,000 (Sundays included).
● Conductor = £34,000 (Sundays paid extra).

Very good wage if you can get it

 

[Horizon22]

It sounds like a bit of a fudge, though. It really should be one thing or the other; what if the signal clears and the driver gets a wrong route indication, or the OBS reads across to another signal, keys off and the driver SPADs. Does the OBS take any share of the blame, or receive retraining etc.?

For you first example, what would be the issue there for an OBS? It’s just like a driver wrong-reading on a DOO service.

The OBS wouldn’t be “reading” signals and keying off has nothing to do with the official dispatch procedure, just the driver couldn’t start without it happening.

The OBS is not safety critical so I can’t see how they would be to blame? Southern is a DOO service, but with second member of support staff on-board. It’s stronger than just having a “host” on board (because they have to be rostered), but weaker than a guard operation obviously.

 

[Krokodil]

Surely the "incentive" is a salary, is in my job

Performance-related pay is hardly unusual in almost any industry.

 

[LowLevel]

Performance-related pay is hardly unusual in almost any industry.

True, but arbitrarily deciding you're not going to decide to do what is accepted to be a large part of your job on a whim is however quite unusual. Being able to think "nah, can't be bothered with tickets on this one" and get away with it is an anomaly really. Yes, there are good reasons etc etc, but I've heard some truly stupid excuses from colleagues of late on hand over which have really tried my patience when I've found messes to sort out.

 

[Krokodil]

True, but arbitrarily deciding you're not going to decide to do what is accepted to be a large part of your job on a whim is however quite unusual. Being able to think "nah, can't be bothered with tickets on this one" and get away with it is an anomaly really. Yes, there are good reasons etc etc, but I've heard some truly stupid excuses from colleagues of late on hand over which have really tried my patience when I've found messes to sort out.

I must admit that I do get irritated at the laziness of some colleagues. Usually when I'm off duty and they don't bother to go through an easy train. I can see why they avoid some sections but that just makes the problem worse and those of us who do go through end up copping it from scallies who are used to not paying.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I must admit that I do get irritated at the laziness of some colleagues. Usually when I'm off duty and they don't bother to go through an easy train. I can see why they avoid some sections but that just makes the problem worse and those of us who do go through end up copping it from scallies who are used to not paying.

Aren't you tempted (if still in uniform) to march up and down the train as if you were on duty, and scare off said scallies I must admit I'd find that a privately very amusing thing to do, though as you said there is the risk of "copping it."

 

[Krokodil]

I don't tend to wear uniform on my days off.

 

[winks]

Just out of curiosity how come OBS vacancies aren’t advertised, I can think of 1 or 2 occasions since the role was created (imposed) by southern that they haven been posted up.

Are they advertised on an internal website beforehand now ?

 

[Mainsideman]

Just out of curiosity how come OBS vacancies aren’t advertised, I can think of 1 or 2 occasions since the role was created (imposed) by southern that they haven been posted up.

Are they advertised on an internal website beforehand now ?

There is an advert right now for victoria and east croydon depots https://gtrailwaycareers.com/jobs/v...train-crew-depot---victoria/1819/description/

 

[winks]

Great, thanks

 

[WizCastro197]

Sorry to resurrect your his thread, but every Eastbourne train I take, I seem to have my ticket checked, not that it’s a problem. Very nice experience yesterday with two OBS on board with one providing very clear and informative announcements.