Southern Keygo

[mattdickinson]

Southern are to introduce their version of PAYG to The Key, but the card must be registered to auto-topup.

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/

keyGo is Southern's new innovative product which allows customers to pay for their journey via a top up system - similar to a pay as you go. Once you have a key smartcard you will be able to register for keyGo! This will deduct £20 from your nominated payment card and journeys will be debited from this amount until it drops below £5, when a further deduction will be requested.

 

[JaJaWa]

There's lots more information here: https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/KeyGo_Conditions_of_Use_V1.pdf

Southern strangely seem to have forgotten that the ticket is valid on their own services...

All Train and bus Companies operating services listed below accept keyGo pay as you go on the key for travel on their services, where available (as shown in Section 2 below).
• First Capital Connect Limited
• First Greater Western Limited (trading as First Great Western)
• Brighton & Hove Buses
• Metrobus

Interestingly as Go-Ahead also run the bus services (Brighton & Hove and Metrobus) around the Southern routes, you will be able to touch-in on these buses and a PlusBus ticket will be debited from your account.

Automatic break of journey handling sounds good and not having to load a ticket but being charged for the cheapest fare also looks useful. Shame you can't add Railcard discounts yet!

For rail journeys keyGo is available with a “best fare” offer. This offer allows us to review the journeys you have undertaken and apply the best fare that would apply, giving you piece of mind, that you have not over paid for the journeys made. For buses it is a flat daily fare, this allows you to then travel as many times as you with on the bus, within the relevant zone.

The best fare offer is based on comparisons on walk-up fares. Walk up fares for the best fare offer is defined as Peak and Off-Peak Day single and return tickets.

When a journey is made within the keyGo area, your bus and rail journeys will be reviewed and the best fare calculated on your behalf.

For example, if travelling between Hove and Southwick and tapped out at Fishergate and then back in at Fishergate and continued your journey to Southwick, you would be charged for a single between Hove and Southwick. If a bus tap was also registered, then the bus fare would be added to the single rail fare.

Edit: just to confirm, the system can already be activated on existing key cards: just log into your account here https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/, press keyGo at the top, and add £20.

 

[Hadders]

Interestingly the terms and conditions state:

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/

Where these Conditions of Use differ from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, these Conditions of Use take precedence when you are using your Key smartcard with “Key Go” pay as you go.

I didn't think anything was allowed to take precedence over the NRCoC.

 

[MikeWh]

Interestingly the terms and conditions state:

https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/



I didn't think anything was allowed to take precedence over the NRCoC.

It's the same with Oyster in London. Basically it's because when using PAYG you don't actually have a ticket so your obligations are different.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Well I just signed up. Although I didn't notice where to set the station to update my card so that could be interesting!

The area you can use Keygo is surprisingly limited but should be OK for me for local use. I will give it a go next week to see how well it works (sadly won't have time until at least Monday now)

 

[maniacmartin]

Also note this change from the FAQ page:

Do adults need a photocard?
No, you won’t need a photocard when travelling on a Southern service, however if travelling on another operator they may request to see a photocard or another form of personal identification per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Relevant photo identification will also be required to support some discounted tickets e.g.16-25 Railcard.

The registration page has been amended to only request a photo if you are under 16 years old.

I wonder how this will work with checking season tickets? Will they just accept any proof of ID with your name on?

 

[andrewkeith5]

Also note this change from the FAQ page:


The registration page has been amended to only request a photo if you are under 16 years old.

I wonder how this will work with checking season tickets? Will they just accept any proof of ID with your name on?

Given that it's As Per the NRCoC, I'm going to go with them just going back to issuing the red paper photocards with season tickets.

For anything else, I presume my Railcard (same wallet as the key) or Driving License (always on me) will suffice, but it makes sense considering the card is named and non-transferrable. The quality of photos on Key cards is pretty poor usually too - certainly the photo Metrobus took for my key card with them is so bad you can just about see the shape of my head and one eye!

I'm particularly interested in how this is going to work for buses - e.g. will you have to had travelled by train in order for it to work on buses, and if you don't travel by train on the same day, what is it going to charge you in these scenarios!? A plusbus ticket is surely only valid with a train ticket, and I doubt Southern will automatically charge the rates my Metrobus key charges for single journeys (albeit ones that have to be purchased in a pack). Normally I have a 4-week season for the bus, but I forget to renew it before it runs out putting me in a sticky situation every time I need to get the bus 4 weeks and 1 day after buying the ticket. If I can just go ahead and use my Southern key with Keygo to get a days travel, that could save me a lot of effort, embarassment and hassle...

 

[maniacmartin]

Red photocards would go against the convenience of having everything on one card. Also, the photocard number wouldn't match, so they would have to match on name instead. The NRCoC defines an alternative, namely '(b) another form of personal identification' but doesn't give any more detail as to what might be acceptable.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Red photocards would go against the convenience of having everything on one card. Also, the photocard number wouldn't match, so they would have to match on name instead. The NRCoC defines an alternative, namely '(b) another form of personal identification' but doesn't give any more detail as to what might be acceptable.

In fairness having to show any sort of ID goes against that convenience.

It's an interesting one though - maybe the photocard number will be encoded into the ticket?

Maybe they just wrote it into the terms with no intention of enforcing it unless they identify card swapping becoming a problem and haven't thought about how to make it work yet!?

 

[mattdickinson]

One thing that may cause a bit of confusion is that it's initially valid to Newhaven and Seaford by bus but not by train.

 

[radamfi]

Well I just signed up. Although I didn't notice where to set the station to update my card so that could be interesting!

Neither did I!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But it loaded at the barrier at Three Bridges yesterday (Friday) and touched out successfully at Gatwick a few minutes later. I then used it on various Metrobus services around Gatwick/Crawley. An Anytime Day Single has been charged to my account, but the bus trips haven't as yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bus fare has now come off my KeyGo. They deducted £3.70, the PlusBus fare. Normally PlusBus wouldn't be valid with a Three Bridges to Gatwick ticket. They could have deducted the £4.10 regular Metrorider fare. The next test will be to use it on buses only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yesterday I travelled around Brighton by bus only. £4.10 has been deducted from my card, the price of a Brighton & Hove day ticket. So it is clever enough to know that I am not entitled to the cheaper Plusbus fare.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Neither did I!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But it loaded at the barrier at Three Bridges yesterday (Friday) and touched out successfully at Gatwick a few minutes later. I then used it on various Metrobus services around Gatwick/Crawley. An Anytime Day Single has been charged to my account, but the bus trips haven't as yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bus fare has now come off my KeyGo. They deducted £3.70, the PlusBus fare. Normally PlusBus wouldn't be valid with a Three Bridges to Gatwick ticket. They could have deducted the £4.10 regular Metrorider fare. The next test will be to use it on buses only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yesterday I travelled around Brighton by bus only. £4.10 has been deducted from my card, the price of a Brighton & Hove day ticket. So it is clever enough to know that I am not entitled to the cheaper Plusbus fare.

Impressive! Seems like Southern are finally using smartcards how most people consider they're supposed to be used and are starting to experiment properly with logic.

What would be interesting would be to see if it was smart enough to just charge a single bus fare if you just use one bus and no trains... That might be a little far for now.

Certainly seems like Southern are doing a proper job with this I understand now why the geographic areas are quite restrictive but it will be excellent to see it grow across the new TSGN franchise . Finally ITSO is being taken seriously!

 

[bb21]

What would be interesting would be to see if it was smart enough to just charge a single bus fare if you just use one bus and no trains... That might be a little far for now.

To be honest I don't think there should be any reason why not. B&H have a flat fare system generally so they should find it quite easy to deal with. Alternatively install touch-out readers on buses for people making short journeys so the system knows when to charge a local fare.

Very positive developments so far.

 

[radamfi]

What would be interesting would be to see if it was smart enough to just charge a single bus fare if you just use one bus and no trains... That might be a little far for now.

On the website it shows the times that I boarded each bus so I reckon they could charge a single fare in each zone of validity. The hitch might be that there is no absolute flat fare in either Brighton or Crawley.

In Crawley/Gatwick/Horley, Metrobus give you 5, 10 or 25 singles for £2, £1.90 or £1.80 a trip and do m-tickets for £2 a trip. However, short single fares are £1.50 in cash on the bus and there is no mobile or smartcard version of that.

Brighton & Hove mostly have a £2.40 cash single, but also have a £1.80 cash single for some short trips and a £2 cash single for short trips in the centre. The £2.40 single can be bought as a mobile ticket for £2.25.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Both BB21 and radamfi have valid reasoning, but I'm sure there's a compromise that can be made.

The vast majority of fares in Crawley are £2.20 for example - so I don't see why it couldn't charge either that, or just the standard mobile single fare (presumably the multi-journey tickets and seasons could simply be added as products some time in the future when the cards become truly operator-interoperable). I don't think touch-out validators would be worth installing on buses for the few journeys which are more/less expensive.

I agree fantastic developments being made by Southern and I'm very keen to see them continue. Go Ahead (and Southern in particular) seem to be the only company who are really keen on getting ITSO Smartcards working as intended...

 

[radamfi]

Both BB21 and radamfi have valid reasoning, but I'm sure there's a compromise that can be made.

The vast majority of fares in Crawley are £2.20 for example - so I don't see why it couldn't charge either that, or just the standard mobile single fare (presumably the multi-journey tickets and seasons could simply be added as products some time in the future when the cards become truly operator-interoperable). I don't think touch-out validators would be worth installing on buses for the few journeys which are more/less expensive.

I agree fantastic developments being made by Southern and I'm very keen to see them continue. Go Ahead (and Southern in particular) seem to be the only company who are really keen on getting ITSO Smartcards working as intended...

Personally I would be happy for them to deduct the mobile single fare, but I'm sure some people would complain. I've already seen complaints on the Metrobus Facebook page that they feel 'ripped off' that the multi-journey tickets cost more than the £1.50 single, failing to realise that these tickets are only intended for use when the cash fare is £2.20.

On the other hand, in some areas of Crawley the £1.50 single does go quite far. For example, Three Bridges station to anywhere in Pound Hill or Maidenbower costs £1.50. A lot of people in those areas use the bus to get to the station as those areas have many commuters. These are the sort of trips where a combined rail/bus smartcard would be particularly useful.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Personally I would be happy for them to deduct the mobile single fare, but I'm sure some people would complain. I've already seen complaints on the Metrobus Facebook page that they feel 'ripped off' that the multi-journey tickets cost more than the £1.50 single, failing to realise that these tickets are only intended for use when the cash fare is £2.20.

On the other hand, in some areas of Crawley the £1.50 single does go quite far. For example, Three Bridges station to anywhere in Pound Hill or Maidenbower costs £1.50. A lot of people in those areas use the bus to get to the station as those areas have many commuters. These are the sort of trips where a combined rail/bus smartcard would be particularly useful.

Some people will never be happy eh!

Hold on, I live in Pound Hill and I've always just paid £2.20 to get there.... but then I have a monthly season normally. Personally I'd prefer a system like London's where it's one price wherever and whenever you go. Takes all the confusion out of everything!

 

[bb21]

You may have overpaid.

 

[andrewkeith5]

You may have overpaid.

It appears I have! But not very often thankfully - I don't need to go to the station by bus too frequently as I can walk there faster most of the time! And normally I have the season ticket anyway.

 

[talldave]

There's something strange I spotted in Southern's FAQ:

"There also needs to be a gap of at least 3 minutes between taps between trains and buses."

That's really user friendly then??? If you swipe out of a station and hop straight on a bus, what happens??

As an engineer/programmer I'd have expected the only error condition to be if a bus "swipe" occurred earlier in time than a "train exit swipe"?

 

[Deerfold]

There's something strange I spotted in Southern's FAQ:

"There also needs to be a gap of at least 3 minutes between taps between trains and buses."

That's really user friendly then??? If you swipe out of a station and hop straight on a bus, what happens??

As an engineer/programmer I'd have expected the only error condition to be if a bus "swipe" occurred earlier in time than a "train exit swipe"?

I suspect that might be to cover cases where the internal clock drifts a little to ensure the tap-out it counted as being before the tap-in. I suspect the on-bus readers may only have their time reset once a day - 3 minutes is probably more than you need, but they look to be playing it safe.

 

[talldave]

Either way, it's an impractical requirement to put on passengers. We have this wonderful replacement for cash.... but, it may be rejected and you'll have to get off bus if you've just completed a train journey.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Either way, it's an impractical requirement to put on passengers. We have this wonderful replacement for cash.... but, it may be rejected and you'll have to get off bus if you've just completed a train journey.

I don't think it's that impractical - I'd say it's fairly rare for there to be less than 3 minutes from gateline to bus.

I also doubt it would be refused on the bus - if it's to do with the clock synchronisastion I'd say it would be more an issue at the back-end processing stage when the system tries to process the train transactions and gets stuck because there's a bus tap where there should be a train tap-out.

 

[talldave]

If there were no negative consequences of getting on a bus within 3 minutes of getting off a train, why would Southern go to the trouble of telling you that there needs to be a gap?

It's a loaded statement that implies bad things will happen! And there's no point in asking Southern as their customer service people just reply with gibberish.

 

[andrewkeith5]

As an aside from the previous conversation, I have tried a few journeys with Keygo now and it seems to work remarkably well in practice - it's certainly made The Key an awful lot more useful to me now.

To confirm - the system isn't quite smart enough yet to determine that only one bus journey in a day should be charged at a cheaper rate - I took one train, then one bus and was charged the £3.70 Plusbus fare for the bus section.

 

[button_boxer]

To confirm - the system isn't quite smart enough yet to determine that only one bus journey in a day should be charged at a cheaper rate - I took one train, then one bus and was charged the £3.70 Plusbus fare for the bus section.

The FAQ does warn about this:

"There is a flat fee for the day when traveling on buses."

Hopefully this can be made more intelligent in future.

 

[andrewkeith5]

The FAQ does warn about this:

"There is a flat fee for the day when traveling on buses."

Hopefully this can be made more intelligent in future.

Yeah, I can't claim not to have seen that - but seen as it charges differently for with/without a train journey, I figured it was worth seeing if it was an undocumented feature

 

[zdz]

The FAQ does warn about this:

"There is a flat fee for the day when traveling on buses."

Hopefully this can be made more intelligent in future.

I'm curious about just using it only on Busses in Brighton.
While I use M-Tickets, specifically the CenterFare at £2.00. (I only usually make sporadic, single, central journeys)

One presumes you don't touch-out on a Bus, so I suspect it has no knowledge of the distance travelled so charges the flat rate at £3.70.

So I guess I'm best off to continue using the M-Ticket, as I'll be overcharged on the Key? Correct?

 

[radamfi]

I bought an Off-Peak single from Dorking to Three Bridges yesterday on the Key, for loading at the gates at Dorking. The loading didn't work but the barrier chap let me through anyway as the train was due in 3 minutes.

When I got to Three Bridges, I was surprised when the card let me out of the barrier. But later on yesterday evening I remembered that it let me through because I have KeyGo on my card. And this morning I got an email saying that I had an incomplete journey and I had to phone them up to avoid getting a £25 maximum fare.

When I phoned them up, they said that those emails get sent automatically but there is no action at the moment because it is a trial, so there is no need to worry! So it looks like if you are on KeyGo and only touch in or touch out, you don't have to pay!

 

[londonbridge]

I don't think it's that impractical - I'd say it's fairly rare for there to be less than 3 minutes from gateline to bus.

For those that know the area, on more than one occasion I have come into East Croydon and have been off the train, up the ramp, out of the station, down George Street and left to Fairfield Halls and on a bus well within three minutes, moreso if the three minutes don't start until I go through the gateline.