Southern Class 313 withdrawal/storage/scrapping updates

[physics34]

Most Coastway services - especially Brighton to Southampton - are also rammed with 4 car units, sometimes to the point where no more passengers can board. The whole of Southern seem to be having a rolling stock shortage, so the 377/5s are desperately needed, and hopefully some 387s or 379s at some point. The issue is, you could say the same about Southeastern, who still need their 377/5s.

Those damn 701s at swr are holding everything up... its not even funny anymore its utterly embarrassing. I still reckon the 387/379 cascade will happen, the leasing company will have to bite the bullet.... unless they go to scotland to replace 318/320.

 

[43096]

Most Coastway services - especially Brighton to Southampton - are also rammed with 4 car units, sometimes to the point where no more passengers can board. The whole of Southern seem to be having a rolling stock shortage, so the 377/5s are desperately needed, and hopefully some 387s or 379s at some point. The issue is, you could say the same about Southeastern, who still need their 377/5s.

The thing is that revenue on the railway is around 80-85% of what it was pre-pandemic, with the London commuter operators particularly badly affected by the revenue drop. Cutting Southern's fleet by 15% (as has been done) is therefore an entirely logical and proportionate response. It should be noted that SWR's fleet has been similarly cut by around 17%.

 

[JonathanH]

I still reckon the 387/379 cascade will happen, the leasing company will have to bite the bullet....

I suspect the DfT doesn't care one bit about overcrowding on a handful of services well away from anywhere in their sphere of interest. If there really is overcrowding, the leasing company is hardly going to reduce its price. It is up to Southern to agree some approach which moves units around within their existing fleet to deal with it because there are still lightly loaded services elsewhere on their network and there is no chance that revenue has recovered.

 

[jackot]

Those damn 701s at swr are holding everything up... its not even funny anymore its utterly embarrassing. I still reckon the 387/379 cascade will happen, the leasing company will have to bite the bullet.... unless they go to scotland to replace 318/320.

Yes, it seems to affect everything at the moment. They are piling up at the depot near me, and it really makes me realise just how bad this has gotten. The whole program seems to have been to 'do it on the cheap' and 'bodge' it, which is now having consequences for the whole network.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, it seems to affect everything at the moment. They are piling up at the depot near me, and it really makes me realise just how bad this has gotten. The whole program seems to have been to 'do it on the cheap' and 'bodge' it, which is now having consequences for the whole network.

The 720's work fine the 701 is mismanagement by both supplier and purchaser but helps keep the 313's going a bit longer and some may make 47 years.

 

[RobShipway]

Why do you think that?

I cannot see there being enough class 313's in working order if they are kept on until next year and if Southern do not have the stock to run the Coastway services, they will revert to bus replacement services which is what has been done in the past. Even though other services have been able to continue, even if it has meant that Southern have provided shorter trains than required.

 

[TST2022]

The 720's work fine the 701 is mismanagement by both supplier and purchaser but helps keep the 313's going a bit longer and some may make 47 years.

Probably the one to make 50 will be 313121

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The thread name “Twilight” is really very misleading. They’re hardly in their final days.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The thread name “Twilight” is really very misleading. They’re hardly in their final days.

They were when the thread started.
The Class 701 mess has meant they are not quite so at risk of imminent withdrawal as they were.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The thread name “Twilight” is really very misleading. They’re hardly in their final days.

They were when I started the thread. But if some are continuing until May then surely "twilight years" is still appropriate?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They were when I started the thread. But if some are continuing until May then surely "twilight years" is still appropriate?

As you wish

 

[Bikeman78]

The thing is that revenue on the railway is around 80-85% of what it was pre-pandemic, with the London commuter operators particularly badly affected by the revenue drop. Cutting Southern's fleet by 15% (as has been done) is therefore an entirely logical and proportionate response. It should be noted that SWR's fleet has been similarly cut by around 17%.

How far back do we have to go for Southern's revenue to be 85% of the January 2020 figure? Was the fleet 15% smaller at that time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

Most Coastway services - especially Brighton to Southampton - are also rammed with 4 car units, sometimes to the point where no more passengers can board. The whole of Southern seem to be having a rolling stock shortage, so the 377/5s are desperately needed, and hopefully some 387s or 379s at some point. The issue is, you could say the same about Southeastern, who still need their 377/5s.

What was the West Coastway service like in 1995? From memory the Arun valley was still hourly and each of Victoria to Hastings and Victoria to Littlehampton (splitting at Worthing for Bournemouth) were hourly. Though it was around that time that all three routes went half hourly, splitting at Haywards Heath in the latter cases. Brighton to Seaford was half hourly and Hastings hourly. I cannot recall the service pattern heading west out of Brighton.

 

[The exile]

The thing is that revenue on the railway is around 80-85% of what it was pre-pandemic, with the London commuter operators particularly badly affected by the revenue drop. Cutting Southern's fleet by 15% (as has been done) is therefore an entirely logical and proportionate response. It should be noted that SWR's fleet has been similarly cut by around 17%.

Only to an accountant!

 

[JonathanH]

How far back do we have to go for Southern's revenue to be 85% of the January 2020 figure? Was the fleet 15% smaller at that time?

That doesn't stand to reason. The costs would have been lower then as well. The problem now is 85% of revenue against higher costs.

 

[Bikeman78]

That doesn't stand to reason. The costs would have been lower then as well. The problem now is 85% of revenue against higher costs.

Which costs in particular? Electricity springs to mind. Anyway, reducing the fleet size by 15% won't reduce the cost of running the railway by that amount so the fact that revenue and rolling stock have both reduced by 15% is presumably coincidence.

 

[4BEP]

Most Coastway services - especially Brighton to Southampton - are also rammed with 4 car units, sometimes to the point where no more passengers can board. The whole of Southern seem to be having a rolling stock shortage, so the 377/5s are desperately needed, and hopefully some 387s or 379s at some point. The issue is, you could say the same about Southeastern, who still need their 377/5s.

As you say Southeastern still need the 377/5s as the Southwest 707s are metro units and were never intended to free up the 377s. Southeastern is now in the hands of the OLR with no sign of any new mainline stock being ordered. The December TT will mot change things as it will still require all of the 375s and 377s.

 

[JonathanH]

The December TT will mot change things as it will still require all of the 375s and 377s.

That does seem to be a failure in the planning. How does it still need all of the 375s and 377s when there are fewer services in the peak relative to historic patterns?

As you say Southeastern still need the 377/5s as the Southwest 707s are metro units and were never intended to free up the 377s. Southeastern is now in the hands of the OLR with no sign of any new mainline stock being ordered.

If, as you say the 707s were just there for Networker replacement, then greater priority should have been given to writing a December 2022 timetable that didn't need as many mainline units and allowed the release of 12 377/5s to Southern.

 

[jackot]

As you say Southeastern still need the 377/5s as the Southwest 707s are metro units and were never intended to free up the 377s. Southeastern is now in the hands of the OLR with no sign of any new mainline stock being ordered. The December TT will mot change things as it will still require all of the 375s and 377s.

And I don't think they will be in any rush to order new units from Alstom after 'Arteriogate', as a 701 sort of unit would have probably been worth looking into for networker replacement, but I can't see them wanting Aventras until SWRs fleet are operating to an acceptable standard. Without getting too speculative, maybe they could order some more 707s. But until the 701s get working, the 707s and 377/5s, and the 313s will have no real choice but to stay put.

 

[KJCross1983]

From December 3x 313's will be removed and will be replaced with 3x three cars, 3 series 377's. The rest of the 313's are looking at going in May 2023.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

From December 3x 313's will be removed and will be replaced with 3x three cars, 3 series 377's. The rest of the 313's are looking at going in May 2023.

Good to hear but is that based on SE releasing the balance of the 377/5's or a further rejig of diagrams or service culls?

 

[jackot]

From December 3x 313's will be removed and will be replaced with 3x three cars, 3 series 377's. The rest of the 313's are looking at going in May 2023.

Wow, its been a while since we had 377/3s on the coastway. I wonder if all 28 or so will make there way over by May.

 

[JonathanH]

Wow, its been a while since we had 377/3s on the coastway. I wonder if all 28 or so will make there way over by May.

Given there are only 12 or so 313 diagrams, it doesn't seem apparent that the whole 377/3 fleet will migrate to coastal workings.

If they are being worked on a cyclic basis, you would expect all 28 to work coast services at some point but it seems likely that they will retain London metro work as well.

 

[Wolfie]

The thing is that revenue on the railway is around 80-85% of what it was pre-pandemic, with the London commuter operators particularly badly affected by the revenue drop. Cutting Southern's fleet by 15% (as has been done) is therefore an entirely logical and proportionate response. It should be noted that SWR's fleet has been similarly cut by around 17%.

Revenue and capacity requirements are not the same.

 

[TST2022]

From December 3x 313's will be removed and will be replaced with 3x three cars, 3 series 377's. The rest of the 313's are looking at going in May 2023.

What units do you know?

 

[Wolfie]

Only to an accountant!

Exactly.

 

[TST2022]

Wow, its been a while since we had 377/3s on the coastway. I wonder if all 28 or so will make there way over by May.

I don't know whether this is true or not but a /3 was forming a Portsmouth harbour service from Brighton a few weeks ago

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2022 ==

Given there are only 12 or so 313 diagrams, it doesn't seem apparent that the whole 377/3 fleet will migrate to coastal workings.

If they are being worked on a cyclic basis, you would expect all 28 to work coast services at some point but it seems likely that they will retain London metro work as well.

I believe the /5s will go to South London with the 6 and 7s and then the /3s doing London work will be cascaded down. All of them can't be taken down because of Redhill to Tonbridge line needing /3s but can always operate with a /1 /2 or /4 aswell

 

[PedroHav]

There was a 377 3 on the Portsmouth to Brighton service today. Quite a surprise!

 

[TST2022]

There was a 377 3 on the Portsmouth to Brighton service today. Quite a surprise!

What time out of Brighton

 

[ls2270]

What time out of Brighton

It’s 377315, currently working 1S26 1500 Brighton - Portsmouth & S

 

[TST2022]

It’s 377315, currently working 1S26 1500 Brighton - Portsmouth & S

Okay