It’s been reported on Facebook that 2 class 171s are now stopped at Selhurst to be reformed back into 3 carriage units ready for a move to EMR. The first 2 units are 171202 & 171402. Apparently the /7 and /8 are staying with Southern for the time being. Obviously although they ran different routes as the 455s it doesn’t look good that southern are loosing even more stock. All the ex Scotrail units are due to move to EMR from Southern in due course.
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Southern class 171s being reformed into 3 coach sets.
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Thanks for the update.
Are they getting the original numbers they had back, or a new number? Before anyone asks why they’d get a new number, I’m not quite sure, but it’s possible I guess.
It’s only the 4 ex-Scotrail units moving. The original Southern units (/7s and /8s) will remain with Southern.
That’s correct.
Razorblades
Member
I expect they will return to their previous identities, reflecting their conversion back to standard Turbostar (BSI) couplers.
a_c_skinner
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The Wiki page says 6 x /7 and 2 x /8 are going to Scotrail (Edit should say EMR) too. Was this wrong or a change? (DoI I'm not following this I just looked for a bit of background). I'm just an occasional visitor to Sussex.
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nationalrail
Member
These plans are ridiculous. I suppose passengers on the Marshlink and Uckfield lines (which both already see an appalling service) can look forward to their trains being ridiculously overcrowded again.
Originally i remember Southern were supposed to get seven three coach units from Scotrail but only four three coach units ever turned up. So the other three never arrived and now the four that did arrive are leaving.
I remember the Marshlink line used to always be two coaches and it was terrible. The peak hour trains would be so overcrowded that they would leave passengers behind. Even now the four coach units are often full and standing at peak hours and on busy days.
I suppose that is the end of ten coach trains on the Uckfield line. In fact i do not think any ten coach trains have run since the start of the Corona Virus so it seems these may already be finished. So i guess that was all a massive waste of money extending every platform at every station on the Uckfield line to fit ten coaches a few years ago. They already get such a poor service on the Uckfield line compared to before the Corona Virus with such infrequent trains so this will just mean more overcrowding.
If these units are going they need to find some others to replace them or the Marshlink and Uckfield lines will be overcrowded nightmares again. Even better just get on with the third rail electrification and then ordinary twelve coach EMUs can run on these two lines.
Originally i remember Southern were supposed to get seven three coach units from Scotrail but only four three coach units ever turned up. So the other three never arrived and now the four that did arrive are leaving.
I remember the Marshlink line used to always be two coaches and it was terrible. The peak hour trains would be so overcrowded that they would leave passengers behind. Even now the four coach units are often full and standing at peak hours and on busy days.
I suppose that is the end of ten coach trains on the Uckfield line. In fact i do not think any ten coach trains have run since the start of the Corona Virus so it seems these may already be finished. So i guess that was all a massive waste of money extending every platform at every station on the Uckfield line to fit ten coaches a few years ago. They already get such a poor service on the Uckfield line compared to before the Corona Virus with such infrequent trains so this will just mean more overcrowding.
If these units are going they need to find some others to replace them or the Marshlink and Uckfield lines will be overcrowded nightmares again. Even better just get on with the third rail electrification and then ordinary twelve coach EMUs can run on these two lines.
Yes, planned formations were given in another thread. One 9- and three 8-car formations in the morning peak on the Uckfield line.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nge-september-2022.234827/page-5#post-5801058
No, it was useful before March 2020 and could be again one day. The platforms needed extending regardless - might as well have been extensions to full length. A 9-car train is still using the extensions made.
I'm not sure the 377 fleet will stretch sufficiently far to cover the Uckfield line as well.
QSK19
Member
As much as I think our differing opinions are influenced by our respective locations (ie you are fighting for Southern’s needs and I’m doing the same for EMR’s needs), maybe you don’t realise just how critical EMR’s Regional situation is. Transfer of the 171s will have been based on where the units are more needed and clearly EMR’s dire situation outweighs the impact of Southern having reduced 171 stock.
Whilst I’m sympathetic to the fact that Southern will be losing stock, clearly the fact this decision has been taken shows that, when considering the overall picture, it’ll be one step back but two steps forward. The amount of shortformed and cancelled services that EMR is suffering from means that every single 17x that it can get its hands on will be much appreciated.
Therefore, whilst it may be ridiculous from Southern’s point of view, it isn’t when considering the overall picture.
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Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Ah, but what about when Southern loses its 19 313 units? They'll need to be replaced with 377's; either from Southern's own pool or Southeastern
DanNCL
Established Member
EMR have a much more pressing need for those 4 units than Southern. Ultimately we can actually point a lot of the blame for this at CAF - we wouldn't be in this situation if CAF had got the 196s in service on time as EMR would have been able to have all of the WMT 170s.
It's also worth remembering that if/when the 379s come on the scene, there'll be around 30 extra 387s heading to Southern.
I don't see how retaining those extra 171s would help that situation. 171s don't operate any of the same routes as either the 313s or the 377s.
It's also worth remembering that if/when the 379s come on the scene, there'll be around 30 extra 387s heading to Southern.
Post by LA50041 on the Urgent TOPS Request thread:
171812 is on ECR-UCK services (with 171810) depart UCK 0833/1133/1433/1733/2033
Cant see 230005
376011 on CST Rounder at 1005
376026 1000 HYS-CHX /1054 CHX-DFD
Cant see 466009
So at least 171810 (in addition to the previously reported 171812) is in service.
Does anyone know which carriage it's gained - or indeed any other updates on 171 reformation project please?
171812 is on ECR-UCK services (with 171810) depart UCK 0833/1133/1433/1733/2033
Cant see 230005
376011 on CST Rounder at 1005
376026 1000 HYS-CHX /1054 CHX-DFD
Cant see 466009
So at least 171810 (in addition to the previously reported 171812) is in service.
Does anyone know which carriage it's gained - or indeed any other updates on 171 reformation project please?
meld3
Member
Saw 171812 yesterday formed of 50726 + 56801 + 79726.
So basically 171726 plus a centre coach from 171801.
Looks like they (721-730) will be numbered 807-816.
727-730 staying as 2-car sets. 721 to 726 become 807 to 812 with the middle cars not in any specific order.
Kite159
Veteran Member
171810 is formed of 171724 & 56805 (from 805)
(Attached is a photo of 810 at Hurst Green)
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Many thanks Kite159
Kite159
Veteran Member
I wonder if the original 171/8s (801-806) will have one of the first class areas permanenty declassified to bring them in line with the 'new' 171/8s (807-812) which only have it at one end?
Similar to the 171/2s when they existed.
Similar to the 171/2s when they existed.
I asked the same question of Southern on Twitter. No response though. I would assume so. As South Eastern is getting g Freida of First Class altogether it would seem odd if a neighbouring line was increasing its proportion of First Class
43096
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Third set now showing as re-formed. 171722 is now 171808 with the addition of 56804.
Many thanks 43096
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Three of these are parked outside at Selhurst this morning ( 31st ) and they are in a photographable position from passing trains.
171 810, 171 811 and 171 813.
Two are on the fuelling point and the other in front of the shed.
171 810, 171 811 and 171 813.
Two are on the fuelling point and the other in front of the shed.
Really? I thought they stopped at 171812.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
Whilst this is a true point, and I do agree with you on that, wouldn't electrification allow Southern to have a common, simple and unified electric fleet, therefore saving costs on having to maintain a tiny non standard diesel microfleet?
They are not non standard as they share the same modular design as electrostars and mainly differ in the type of traction equipment and undercarriage.
They are totally non-standard in Southern as they are an handful of diesel engined trains amongst every other train being electric. The fact that they are cosmetically the same as Electrostars is irrelevant. Try fitting an Electrostar trailer car between two 171 driving cars. Might look good onm a drag but won't be gioing anywhere under their own power.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Wouldn't even look good on a drag with the considerably longer carriage length of the Turbostar
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
I'll have to have a close look at my photo when I can get it on the computer tonight... I'll report back.
Reply #13 suggests they go up to 171 816 though?
there are only six sets to be shortened (see post 14)
Only 3m.We've had multiple units in the uk before where one car is longer than the others*, e.g. class 306 & class 506,Wouldn't even look good on a drag with the considerably longer carriage length of the Turbostar
*not just slightly longer because of a streamlines cab or auto couplers
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Wonder if it was 171 803 that I saw? Has that one lost a carriage yet?
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