Would they be able to extend the ECS quite easily?
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Southern (and other TOCs) - crew unavailable
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Would they be able to extend the ECS quite easily?
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HarleyDavidson
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It depends on the weeks overnight engineering requirements, if there's none, then it's quite easy to do, as that train goes down to Guildford and forms 2D06 - 0458 to Waterloo, the crew stop at Guildford until the first one up, which is 2F02 - 0425 to Waterloo (sometimes earlier), again depending on engineering work.
However if there's engineering work, then a fleet of taxi's would be required, but I would imagine that they'd group people together to save on the number of taxi's required, which makes sense.
However if there's engineering work, then a fleet of taxi's would be required, but I would imagine that they'd group people together to save on the number of taxi's required, which makes sense.
asylumxl
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I don't know if this has been mentioned and I've scanned through the thread but not seen it so here goes.
Regarding the FCC/GTR issues, I have been told by quite a few friends working for Thameslink that a decent number of drivers decided not to transfer when the franchise switched over. They didn't wish to work for Govia or in some cases work for them again. This has further compounded the RDW problems.
I'm not sure how true this is though. Perhaps someone can verify.
Regarding the FCC/GTR issues, I have been told by quite a few friends working for Thameslink that a decent number of drivers decided not to transfer when the franchise switched over. They didn't wish to work for Govia or in some cases work for them again. This has further compounded the RDW problems.
I'm not sure how true this is though. Perhaps someone can verify.
HarleyDavidson
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How does that work then?
I thought that FCC was part of the TGSN/GTR franchise, so they'd be TUPE'd across regardless.
I thought that FCC was part of the TGSN/GTR franchise, so they'd be TUPE'd across regardless.
Not even remotely true and I'm not sure where your friend got that from as it is a million miles away from how franchise changes work!
No one had a choice when the franchise changed. Every single driver amongst other staff are TUPEd across. The only option if you don't want to work for the new franchise holder is to leave. You can't simply 'not transfer'. I can't see any driver not wanting to work for them badly enough to make themselves unemployed. Some may transfer to other tocs but drivers always do that-they dos under FCC as much as they do under gtr. And very few leave as they don't like their employer.
Steve Bray
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Harley, I object to your flippant and uninformed comment about 'not having to go to London for a night out and have one locally'. For your information I was meeting up with 2 separate sets of friends who I'd not seen for a number of months; am I not allowed to meet them in London? If everyone took the attitude of meeting locally, then presumably there would be no need for trains. So my happy day was spoilt in the end by the train I had hoped to catch not running. I had believed that in the past, the last train of the day was one that every effort should be made to operate
asylumxl
Established Member
So nobody decided to seek employment elsewhere before/after the changeover?
No. Well not due to the franchise change. There has been no real increase in drivers leaving compared to under FCC.
Sorry but I'm not sure if your friends or you have misunderstood something but GN & TL depots have been understaffed for a long time. Driver numbers have only increased under GTR. There certainly hasn't been a surge in those leaving around the franchise change. All FCC drivers were TPUEd over.
gtr driver
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Perhaps HD was a little harsh. Great efforts are made not to cancel any train, especially the last ones. But sometimes you just run out of options. If there is no driver for whatever reason, a faulty train, or a problem with the line, then that's that. You can't do something that's physically impossible.
HarleyDavidson
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Thank you gtr.
Steve Bray. To me you came across as quite adversarial, which would put me on the defence, as gtr driver has stated:
And as I felt quite rightly you expected your TOC (in this case SN) to wave a magic wand and produce a driver out of nowhere, again gtr has said you just can't do it if you don't have the manpower or resources to do it, it's that simple, however your attitude appeared be typical commuter/London & HC of a stroppy "Well that's simply, not good enough", well I'm sorry, it'll have to be, because if you & any other member of pubic start throwing strops and temper tantrums, being abusive to staff and obstructing the operation of the railway, you'll pretty soon find yourself having a chat with the BTP, instead of having the offer of alternative transportation home, usually a taxi courtesy of the TOC.
Thank you.
Steve Bray. To me you came across as quite adversarial, which would put me on the defence, as gtr driver has stated:
gtr driver said:
And as I felt quite rightly you expected your TOC (in this case SN) to wave a magic wand and produce a driver out of nowhere, again gtr has said you just can't do it if you don't have the manpower or resources to do it, it's that simple, however your attitude appeared be typical commuter/London & HC of a stroppy "Well that's simply, not good enough", well I'm sorry, it'll have to be, because if you & any other member of pubic start throwing strops and temper tantrums, being abusive to staff and obstructing the operation of the railway, you'll pretty soon find yourself having a chat with the BTP, instead of having the offer of alternative transportation home, usually a taxi courtesy of the TOC.
Thank you.
Interesting. So what happens to the train and crew when there is engineering works?
They would be re-diagramed accordingly taking this into consideration.
Each TOC has some form of planning team who look after the long term timetables with the rolling stock and staff allocated to cover all the services. Plus another sub team who unpick this and rewrite the diagrams to provide services around any engineering work, cater for special events etc.
Surreytraveller
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I don't think it was intended to help. More as a form of protest!
Like this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-34307290
HarleyDavidson
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Goes back to Wimbledon usually & stay there and then ECS to Guildford in the morning to do 0425 or they alter the stock at Guildford overnight & crew come down by taxi.
Normally the crew get in at 0120 & get their heads down for a couple of hours before going back to London on the 0425.
You'd have thought they'd give those two trains to Guildford crew, however they won't do that as the 0425 is forever being diverted due to engineering, so it would mean Guildford crew having to have extra route knowledge which they won't pay for.
Surreytraveller
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Well, the train was full of passengers, so I got the impression that they didn't know they didn't have a driver until the train didn't leave. Seems like it didn't need a magic wand being waved - more like someone wasn't doing their job properly. I'm sure if they knew they didn't have a driver for that train, one could have been arranged - by cancelling another train on another route which wasn't the last one to that destination.
And not everyone goes to London for a night out - some people are trying to get home from work!
Not always that simple. Not all drivers on the southern sign all routes so the Tattenham driver may not sign the road to dorking. Plus late atnight the Tattenham may have 2 drivers-one to Selhurst where they finish their shift and another driver takes over on nights. The night driver may not be able to run to dorking and back as the timings may be too tight meaning diverting him will leave other trains uncovered early morning etc and the driver finishing his shift may not want to work an extra couple of hours to dorking and back. Staff can't be expected to drop all their plans and rearrange their lives to help out their employer who is trying to run understaffed.
Surreytraveller
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There used to be great efforts. Not anymore, it would seem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I understand this. But if they knew they had no driver, arrangements could have been made. Not necessarily the Tattenham train - the last but one dorking could have been run 30 minutes late, they could have asked another driver to stay on, or work rest day. But if they didn't know they didn't have a driver, then arrangements cannot always be made at the last minute.
Seems like a rostering or management c0ck up rather than a driver issue. Obviously there was nothing thaty the station staff could have done. And there were no managers there - they must all be on Monday to Friday hours - of course nothing for them to do at weekends, as no one of any importance (or likely to write to their MP) travels on Saturdays and Sundays.
Basically Southern cannot run the diagrammed number of services with the amount of crews available on a Sunday, they won't pay for spares in case there is a rare week when a driver might not be utilised and there is minimum cover turns available.
I hated working Sundays trying to cover a turn when a driver or guard went sick at short notice, it was nearly impossible at short notice to get someone in or persuade someone to do overtime.
I hated working Sundays trying to cover a turn when a driver or guard went sick at short notice, it was nearly impossible at short notice to get someone in or persuade someone to do overtime.
The big issue on relying on OT is that drivers can get OT on tap. This means when someone is not volunteering to work it is almost impossible to persuade them to come in. There are times when I can easily be bringing home an extra £500 a week through OT. When I then get begged to come in on an extra day I'm not easily persuaded by the offer of even more money-I don't want to work that day as it's the first day off I've had in a while or I have other plans. Perhaps if less OT was available in the first place I'd be more keen on the idea of being offered an extra £2-300.
HarleyDavidson
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So why should someone else lose out for you? What arrogance.
Quite simple, No driver & no one willing to do a rest day or overtime, well that's game over. I won't do rest days or overtime for my lot, they don't pay the correct & going rate anymore so, I won't do it, nor will a significant number of others either.
So the loser will be the TOC because it costs them more to cancel it, than pay the going rate for overtime or rest days, that to me and most is a Tx1¼ - Tx1½.
Surreytraveller
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Why am I arrogant? How can a driver refuse to work overtime if they haven't even been asked? No effort can be made to cover the train if they don't even know it isn't covered!
It is not the TOC losing out - it is the poor passengers. It is obviously cheaper for them to cancel trains than it is to have a full compliment of staff. Providing a service to their customers is bottom of their list at the moment.
If I am day off and work ring me I don't answer the phone!
They don't even get the chance to ask me, I work for the time off and live within my means and I will work OT when it suits me (it has never suited me yet
).
Then there is the logistics of somebody actually having the time to ring up all these drivers and asking them to work!
Do you think they might be better spending their time trying to utilise the staff they have to maximum benefit?
They don't even get the chance to ask me, I work for the time off and live within my means and I will work OT when it suits me (it has never suited me yet
).Then there is the logistics of somebody actually having the time to ring up all these drivers and asking them to work!
Do you think they might be better spending their time trying to utilise the staff they have to maximum benefit?
ANorthernGuard
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I'll work BUT it will cost them (A Lot)
In my time at my present employer I have worked over (or gone in early) on 4 occasions, on 3 of those they 'forgot' to pay me the agreed overtime (any overtime at all actually) so I don't do anything for them anymore.
What were they doing to prevent its departure do you know?
How do we know they haven't been asked? It costs more to cancel trains than bring in drivers on RDW, even at a double enhanced rate. Then you have the issue of trains been in the wrong place the next day or short formed services.
I'm not familiar with that side of London but I suspect the last DOO trains to Dorking or Tattenham Corner wouldn't wet the appetite for drivers to come in on a Saturday to 'help the company out'.
I agree. Fully staffing depots with RDW where needed encase of long term sick or short periods of training are needed.
Do you mean the station staff didn't know there wasn't a driver?
I'd hazard a guess Southern's Control were well aware. Poor communication to the station I'll grant you right enough.
Another thing that may be relevant for the Dorking example is that there are a lot of new drivers in the depots that don't sign all the routes yet. And because those drivers don't sign all the work they end up sitting spare a lot. So a lot of the time there are actually the appropriate number of spares, but they're not useful because they don't sign everything, and trains still get cancelled for "a member of crew being unavailable."
That problem should sort itself out over time, assuming of course that they actually release drivers to go route learning, which is actually a rostering issue in itself.
wellwhatitis
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Too right.
If you work a 4 out of 7 as I do, the average length of your jobs is between 9 hours and 9.5 hours, Some are 10.
You are usually rostered at least 1 spare a week, but you are often allocated a job on the 7 day mark up that was open. That may also be a long one.
Even if you get your spare, you will generally come in to somebody else's turn who went sick or a job that had been left open, which they frequently do. Or even worse, cross cover for another depot's open job.
Consequently, you can easily end up doing 4 days of 9-10 hour jobs. Why do you then want to be available for your rest day, when they can also allocate you another 10 hour day if one is open. At flat rate! Granted you might be lucky and get a short one and get paid the minimum 9 hours for it, but there aren't many of those about. So many (like me) just don't take the risk and work Sundays instead when you get the benefit.
The problem is the length and intensity of jobs and lack of proper spare turns. If you worked less on the days you were in you wouldn't mind doing the extra day, but when all the jobs you do are rough and then you risk getting another one for flat rate, why would you?
Llanigraham
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You were arrogant because you expected another train to be cancelled so yours could run!
If a driver reports himself as "not available" he will not be asked if he wants to work overtime. Drivers have that right.
And your last paragraph is rubbish and you obvioulsy haven't taken in what staff here have been saying.
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