Southern (and other TOCs) - crew unavailable

[ComUtoR]

So an open question to forum members, if you were in charge of the situation as an Ops Manager, how would you address this problem?

Part-time and increased flexible working.
Increased establishment level.
Diagrammed training days.
Reduction of sick pay.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The extra payment is the ret day agreement and can't simply be taken away by Govia. Most companies reliant on rest days pay a bonus and extra to encourage people to work. As I said earlier, FCC/GTR is £50 booking on bonus and then time+15%. Or you have the option of taking a lieu leave day and only being paid the 15%.

Which has got the backs of SN men up as we do not get the lieu day option.

 

[ComUtoR]

Which has got the backs of SN men up as we do not get the lieu day option.

We have flat rate

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well just say no to overtime and rest days then, when it starts hitting them in the pocket for delays and cancellations, those higher up the food chain might start taking notice.

 

[ComUtoR]

You could pay 10% less for overtime and people will still work them.

In all the jobs that I have had there is always someone who is willing to work extra. You are right in that any removal of labor makes people stand up and take notice but management know that someone will always work. It is quite rare these days when a whole group of employees are united on a single issue and are willing to sacrifice a singe penny of their overtime.

People work extra for various reasons. Debt, stretching budgets, mortgages rises, holidays and even plain greed. We live in a world where every penny counts. I can't knock those who work their rest days as it is their time and not mine.

I don't get £50k pa and neither do I have an expensive Fiat. Everyone's' bottom line is different.

 

[redbutton]

Which has got the backs of SN men up as we do not get the lieu day option.

Sure, but it's already hard enough to get ad-hoc leave, would it really be any value to have extra lieu days you can't use?

 

[HH]

Part-time and increased flexible working.
Increased establishment level.
Diagrammed training days.
Reduction of sick pay.

Part-time working will cause problems on coverage. Flexible? How would that work?

Diagrammed Training Days - training is normally in the Roster, so no gain there.

Reduce Sick Pay probably means a Strike, so "You Lose".

Here's my top suggestions:

1. Correct establishment level that takes into account a normal level of 'extras'
2. Robust diagrams that take into account normal levels of disruption
3. Balanced roster, taking into account all necessary activities, such as training, but ALSO taking into account when most odd days leave are requested (so I wouldn't schedule training, route learning etc on a Friday, for example)
4. Efficient processes for dealing with driver incidents and long term sickness, including temporary adjustments to driver numbers if required
5. A review of current practices to see if any had impacts on driver availability or performance

 

[ComUtoR]

Part-time working will cause problems on coverage. Flexible? How would that work?

Part time already exists in our grade. It's happening now. One of the problems with people going off and not working their RD's is because people want personal time. Those working part time rarely take time off and rarely "go sick" They also require less leave days. One of the reasons why retail is so successful with staffing levels is because they have rostering flexibility. It is easier to pull someone in if you don't have to worry about Hidden.

Diagrammed Training Days - training is normally in the Roster, so no gain there.

I beg to differ. Whilst it may be a factor when building the roster and with building SP turn % you still are at a point in which you are almost required to take Drivers off their running turn for training. It is very very inefficient and relies heavily on RDW. An example is where we used to have rostered days for routes. Now the route days have been removed you get to a situation where we lose a Driver for few days on a refresher and their turn is covered by SP or RDW.

Reduce Sick Pay probably means a Strike, so "You Lose".

Doubtful. It would be hard to justify a strike on the basis of being paid when your not working. One of my past jobs didn't pay sickness for single days. Suffice to say that the number of "sickies" drop. Its a difficult balance but there is a small % of people who will blow it in at the last moment purely because "they cannot be bothered today"

4. Efficient processes for dealing with driver incidents and long term sickness, including temporary adjustments to driver numbers if required

Interesting but I wonder how you can adjust Driver numbers on a temp basis and how fast it would react. Considering that incidents are part and parcel of any employment we certainly don't seem to make any allowance for it. Temp adjustments also has the negative side of reducing the workforce when not required. How is that achieved ? Part time.. ?

 

[HH]

Part time already exists in our grade. It's happening now. One of the problems with people going off and not working their RD's is because people want personal time. Those working part time rarely take time off and rarely "go sick" They also require less leave days. One of the reasons why retail is so successful with staffing levels is because they have rostering flexibility. It is easier to pull someone in if you don't have to worry about Hidden.

I should have written a bit more. Part time already exists and already causes problems. It causes problems because part time drivers can't cover the majority of full time drivers. Therefore you need a part time link, and small links are inefficient. If there were a lot more part time drivers then the problems would be mitigated, although they wouldn't go away entirely. It should also be noted that 2 part time drivers cost twice as much to recruit and train as one full time driver - and that's not cheap.

I beg to differ. Whilst it may be a factor when building the roster and with building SP turn % you still are at a point in which you are almost required to take Drivers off their running turn for training. It is very very inefficient and relies heavily on RDW. An example is where we used to have rostered days for routes. Now the route days have been removed you get to a situation where we lose a Driver for few days on a refresher and their turn is covered by SP or RDW.

Let's agree to differ on this then. I think it's simply poor rostering if you have a problem with rostered training. The problem with diagramming things is that you then end up covering them, which IMO is a nonsense.

Doubtful. It would be hard to justify a strike on the basis of being paid when your not working. One of my past jobs didn't pay sickness for single days. Suffice to say that the number of "sickies" drop. Its a difficult balance but there is a small % of people who will blow it in at the last moment purely because "they cannot be bothered today"

As someone who's had about 2 sick days in the last 20 years, I don't disagree with you that some people extract the micturation (although if I didn't get paid for single days I'd have had longer off!). Nevertheless changing T&Cs for the worse, especially one that's in the ASLEF Charter, is bound to result in Industrial Action.

Interesting but I wonder how you can adjust Driver numbers on a temp basis and how fast it would react. Considering that incidents are part and parcel of any employment we certainly don't seem to make any allowance for it. Temp adjustments also has the negative side of reducing the workforce when not required. How is that achieved ? Part time.. ?

It's not an especially quick solution, but then I'm talking about when people become unfit for duty long-term. There can be more of these than you think. You take actions like: adjusting where trainees will pass out to; adjusting what depot transfers can occur; speaking to drivers coming up to possible retirement about their plans. You can also get the next set of diagrams re-balanced if you have a surplus somewhere else, although this is not usually very efficient. The main thing is to take action early. That's the point of a good manpower plan: to see problems ahead as early as possible so that you can take corrective actions.

 

[ComUtoR]

It does go to show that from both of our clearly experienced perspectives it is all very much a double edged sword.

I think we can both agree that the way it happens now needs to change. In my experience it has got worse since I first started. Everything is wound to the point of breaking.

I doubt we will ever get to a point where RDW is not required. Financially it benefits everyone. There needs to be an incentive to employ rather than it being cheaper to pay overtime.

 

[Southern Dvr]

one factor that hasn't been mentioned is tax. It's no longer worth doing more than 3 maybe 4 in the month because the tax you pay outweighs the gain. There was a month last year where I did 5 long rest days and the following month 4 medium length rest days, the take home was much the same. When you combine this with the state of the diagramming and rostering your desire to do lots of overtime quickly diminishes!

 

[Bald Rick]

one factor that hasn't been mentioned is tax. It's no longer worth doing more than 3 maybe 4 in the month because the tax you pay outweighs the gain. There was a month last year where I did 5 long rest days and the following month 4 medium length rest days, the take home was much the same. When you combine this with the state of the diagramming and rostering your desire to do lots of overtime quickly diminishes!

Sorry but that's not possible, unless of course payroll are screwing it up. Once you earn more than about £42.5k pa, the tax / NI take is 42%, so the individual keeps 58%. I'm guessing, but I expect that almost every driver will earn more than £42.5k without doing any overtime RDW, and is thus in this higher rate tax bracket.

So if you do a 5 overtime / RDW days a month, at, say £200 each, you get £580 of it.

There are two provisos.

1) for those with children, once annual earnings rise above £50k, the amount of child benefit you are eligible to tapers off, and above £60k this becomes zero. For those with multiple children this can be quite an effect. I have a friend who had 7, (should have crossed his legs) and this resulted in him losing money (just) if his earnings popped avoid £50k. For people with 2 kids the effect is equivalent to another 18% of tax, although this is usually not done on a month to month basis unless you are consistently above the limit. (It is usually assessed at year end via a tax return).

2) those whose annual earnings clicks over £100k. Because of the way personal allowances work, the marginal tax rate becomes 62% between £100k and about £120k.

Note that all these annual earnings figures are on taxable earnings, ie after any pre tax deductions, such as pension contributions.


Disclaimer - I'm not a tax adviser!!!

 

[theironroad]

For most drivers it is possible to do rdw and keeping out of higher tax. Don't forget that from your taxable income after your personal allowance, your mandatory pension contribution for the rps scheme is taken pre- tax. If you're happy to save for extra pension, then look at BRASS, where you can put a few hundred more in per month tax free and if you max brass out, (or brass allows you to make a lump sum if you dont want to do a deduction every month) then there is an extra avc to contribute to. If you work for a toc that offers a baye scheme, then contributions into that are pre tax as well.

Also don't forget that tax averages out over the tax year. If you do 6 fd in one month, then you will pay a fair bit of tax in that pay month, but if you don't do any for a couple of months, then it evens out a bit. It's your total year pay that needs to be watched.

I'm not a tax adviser either........

 

[ComUtoR]

Pretty much what BR said but with an extra condition .

The tax bracket only takes earnings above the thresholds. Whilst yes most, if not all Driver's are by default in the 40% it is still a small portion of the pay that gets taxed at that rate.

To help drop the amount of tax you pay you can :

Increase your AVC's (pension)
Claim childcare vouchers (they are pretty awesome tbvfh)
Join schemes (bike to work, sharesave etc.)
Change to salary sacrifice pensions (if available)

Those should push your salary under the threshold. Then you work RD's to make up any loss of earnings/tax savings.

The RD mentality is very much one of. IF I get £200 for 5x RDW's then take home £580 then I'm £580 better off. Even if they take home £1 extra then it's still extra. The bottom line is is to take home extra money for whatever reason its needed/wanted.

 

[tony6499]

The only way to sort things would be for TOCs like Southern to beg people who have left the job who actually knew about rostering and diagrams and point them in the right direction.

As others said a full establishment with a proper cover and spares in it, diagrams that don't fall apart at the first hint of disruption and a robust Train Crew control to get crews back in the right place at times of disruption.

All that happens now is penny pinching and no thoughts to the consequence of cancelled and delayed trains for passengers.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

For most drivers it is possible to do rdw and keeping out of higher tax. Don't forget that from your taxable income after your personal allowance, your mandatory pension contribution for the rps scheme is taken pre- tax. If you're happy to save for extra pension, then look at BRASS, where you can put a few hundred more in per month tax free and if you max brass out, (or brass allows you to make a lump sum if you dont want to do a deduction every month) then there is an extra avc to contribute to. If you work for a toc that offers a baye scheme, then contributions into that are pre tax as well.

Also don't forget that tax averages out over the tax year. If you do 6 fd in one month, then you will pay a fair bit of tax in that pay month, but if you don't do any for a couple of months, then it evens out a bit. It's your total year pay that needs to be watched.

I'm not a tax adviser either........

I'm virtually maxed out on BRASS II (I need to adjust it back up again), I only put the minimum into the SW sharesave scheme this time as I had an inkling that things weren't going well within our franchise, so I put in the bare minimum £20 pcm, to minimise the risk should Stagecoach lose it and the share price collapse. I know others who're putting in £150 pcm and the share price has been dropping quite steadily of recent (about 10% down from its high), so my exposure to losses is not that much.

 

[Iskra]

I'm virtually maxed out on BRASS II (I need to adjust it back up again), I only put the minimum into the SW sharesave scheme this time as I had an inkling that things weren't going well within our franchise, so I put in the bare minimum £20 pcm, to minimise the risk should Stagecoach lose it and the share price collapse. I know others who're putting in £150 pcm and the share price has been dropping quite steadily of recent (about 10% down from its high), so my exposure to losses is not that much.

Isn't it only an option to buy shares at the end of the sharesave scheme and not a must- fairly sure you can opt not to buy shares and just take your cash straight back.

Don't know about your company, but mine offers us the shares at 25% discount if we buy, so it would be very hard for us to make a loss.

 

[455driver]

Part-time and increased flexible working. Part timers need the same amount of Management time as a full timer so you would need extra Managers plus the other stuff.
I can be moved 3 hours either side of my spare turn start time, how much more 'flexible' do you want me to be!

Increased establishment level. What about the costs involved? You have to remember the share holders!

Diagrammed training days. I am on a 12 week roster but only need 1 training day every 6 months, what do I do the other day I don't need a training day?


Reduction of sick pay. So you will rewrite my terms and conditions would you? \good luck getting that one in!

I think that covers your points!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You have to remember that some people here in the UK believe that employees should be treated like serfs, with no rights, no name, nothing.

Oh wait, that's this lot in power now & the city boy's.

 

[HLE]

You have to remember that some people here in the UK believe that employees should be treated like serfs, with no rights, no name, nothing.

Oh wait, that's this lot in power now & the city boy's.

This.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Take last tuesdays disruption on the ECML.....

I was rostered training day On a customer service course. That finishes at 4pm, 16:08 to newcastle arrives 17:10 and i book off at 17:15, im due in at 05:33 the next day to work the 06:03 NCL-LIV

Err..... No! Power failure, Darlington. The ECML is at a standstill. So i gets to york, trains are cancelled left, right and centre and being turned back to keep the service robust south. People are everywhere and i have just walked onto the station. People are asking me what is going on and how to get to x y and z.

So frontline ambassador head on, directing people to the only train going north, a ram jammed HST running via the coast. Meanwhile a turned back voyager rolls in on 10, theres 2 wheelchairs, a guy on sticks and a blind woman all to evacuate and found new chariots home.

Jobs done, people directed and Movement regained at 17:30 eventually i find enough relief in the departing madding crowd to catch a voyager unit heading home. Booked off at 19:00.

I was due to book on at 05:33 remember, hidden regulations state 12hrs between shifts so i cannot start until 07:00. Spare man already utilised to cover earlier shift, uncovered because the conductor booked was injured in a car accident (not his fault) and no cross-cover available as they too are covering shifts where people were timed out from the previous days disruption

Train cancelled due to no traincrew, sorry.....

We cant roster for every eventuality. Perhaps however utilising some of the northern rail spares would help, trouble is they dont sign the traction or the route, just as i dont sign the durham coast or 142's so i cant cross cover them! Besides, who pays for that?...

An efficiency lost from BR days where staff could cover anything and anywhere (in comparison to todays route based franchises)

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that covers your points!

Not really. Part time working is happening and like it or not it does need to be addressed. Implement it sensibly. We have a limited number of people doing it and it's working as a job share. However; as already pointed out there is problems associated with it. The flip side is that we could lose those Drivers to retirement or another TOC or they just leave the buisness. Then we are in an even worse situation. Letting those who want part time have it means that they become more productive IF it is implemented sensibly. Taking them out of the main link resolves some problems. It also means that they are more open to flexible working as their contracts are rewritten and more open to RDW as they don't suffer with fatigue, loss of leave and do not have the attitude of FU to the company.

SP turns are not flexible. They are still problematic and have their own problems. We get the 6hr window too and frankly its $"£%"$%"% but I can refuse a job flat out if it falls at 3hr 1min They also have an issue where it breaks hidden because you get a booked turn after a SP turn and your still hitting walls with rostering constraints.

We are also losing Drivers to accommodation and parenting leave. It is very disruptive and your again in a situation where they are pulled off booked turns and having to cover their work. Having flexible working agreements already in place for such situations will ameliorate problems.

Establishment levels need to be raised or work content reduced or increase the SP turns which by default will also raise establishment levels because of the number of booked turns will therefore increase. The fact is that there isn't enough cover or SP turns to reflect the reality of running the service. Shareholders... well.. Until it is financially beneficial to employ then it will always be RDW that is required and services cancelled due to lack of staff but hey, we both know that. The railway suffers from lack of employment and goes through spurts of recruitment and by then its too late. Staff turnover also means we can drop a few Drivers in a a matter of months with no-one coming through to replace them. An increased establishment is almost a necessity.

With the diagrammed training days the whole point is that you have it when you need it. If you don't need it then all is good with the world. By not having any training days you have to lose a Driver for that day when it is required. By building them in they become productive and when not required you can still revert to SP or cover services etc. From personal experience the amount lost to training is just as detrimental. We have a LADD twice a year and a full FDA every 2, chuck in briefings for London Bridge and invariably the yearly autumn brief and you find that training is very much part of our jobs. Probably gonna get new traction training soon too. FYI we have a 60+ week roster In a large depot there is a lot of training and the cost is huge and part due to the amount of RDW that is used to cover it.

Reduction of sick pay. I have seen various changes to my T's & C's. One of them has been a reduction in sick pay. Add reduction in AL and RDW payment, increase to notice period and increases to ATL's (average turn lengths)

Whilst I suspect FordFocus was being facetious. He did ask how we would change it if we were in charge. My first action would without a doubt be to increase the workforce.
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An efficiency lost from BR days where staff could cover anything and anywhere (in comparison to todays route based franchises)

We aren't allowed to cross cover GTR work. We sign both route and traction. Not that I'm bothered but it does show the insular nature of the "modern" railway.

 

[HH]

Isn't it only an option to buy shares at the end of the sharesave scheme and not a must- fairly sure you can opt not to buy shares and just take your cash straight back.

Don't know about your company, but mine offers us the shares at 25% discount if we buy, so it would be very hard for us to make a loss.

You're quite right about Sharesave as Save as You Earn, but for SAYE you don't get tax relief. Buy As You Earn is different; there you get tax relief and usually bonus shares, but you have to buy the shares. But as long as you don't go over the bonus cap it's very difficult to lose, especially if you're on 40% tax.

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An efficiency lost from BR days where staff could cover anything and anywhere (in comparison to todays route based franchises)

It's not that simple. If drivers have to learn more routes then that not only means more training time, but there are also issues in maintaining route knowledge. This is why some depots have links with different route knowledge (well it's one reason).

 

[Surreytraveller]

I see passengers are now beginning to rebel against Southern tonight - they wouldn't let the 1145pm Tattenham Corner depart Victoria after the 1131 Dorking was cancelled!

 

[A-driver]

I see passengers are now beginning to rebel against Southern tonight - they wouldn't let the 1145pm Tattenham Corner depart Victoria after the 1131 Dorking was cancelled!

How will that help? Were they hoping it could be diverted to dorking instead of tattenham?

 

[Steve Bray]

I don't know about the Tattenham Corner train, but it was the last Dorking train. There was next to no information. I ended up taking the 0014 to Redhill, and after some confusion over my taxi arrangements, got home (Dorking) just before 2.30am. Unacceptable for the last train not to operate.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I don't know about the Tattenham Corner train, but it was the last Dorking train. There was next to no information. I ended up taking the 0014 to Redhill, and after some confusion over my taxi arrangements, got home (Dorking) just before 2.30am. Unacceptable for the last train not to operate.

Well if they haven't got a driver and/or guard, to operate it, what do you expect to happen? Someone to wave a magic wand & produce one out of thin air? Tough. You don't have to go to London for a night out you can always have one locally.

If a driver goes sick or is on leave & they can't cover it via a spare or no one wants to work their day off or overtime and neither are compulsory BTW, then you have no option but to cancel it.

It has happened on more than a few occasions with the 2342, 2350 & 0009 to Guildford, OK if the 2342 via Epsom gets cancelled then the 0015 takes its place, subject to engineering work & 0009 gets covered by 0020 Woking, otherwise it's tough.

 

[FordFocus]

Part-time and increased flexible working.
Increased establishment level.
Diagrammed training days.
Reduction of sick pay.

Part-time could work but the main points have been said already.

Increased establishment is the key here, more work = more turns = more manpower required

Training days is a mixed bag. One company I worked for had no training days built into the roster so it was pot luck of when you had a safety brief, especially when your hours were moved inconveniently If you don't require a training day then you weren't marked to one. On the other hand, I work for a company that has it built in and can be regularly cancelled last minute to due lack of instructors, so you can be sat around doing nothing and not marked to an early uncovered job.

What I was getting at more with training is when the need to have more than one day at a time for resignalling projects, new routes, new traction or traction/route refresh courses as opposed to safety days.

Don't agree with the sick pay bit but I see where you are going with this.
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I see passengers are now beginning to rebel against Southern tonight - they wouldn't let the 1145pm Tattenham Corner depart Victoria after the 1131 Dorking was cancelled!

What did that actually achieve?

 

[infobleep]

Well if they haven't got a driver and/or guard, to operate it, what do you expect to happen? Someone to wave a magic wand & produce one out of thin air? Tough. You don't have to go to London for a night out you can always have one locally.

If a driver goes sick or is on leave & they can't cover it via a spare or no one wants to work their day off or overtime and neither are compulsory BTW, then you have no option but to cancel it.

It has happened on more than a few occasions with the 2342, 2350 & 0009 to Guildford, OK if the 2342 via Epsom gets cancelled then the 0015 takes its place, subject to engineering work & 0009 gets covered by 0020 Woking, otherwise it's tough.

The simple answer is a taxi at the expense of the TOC as they are obliged to get you home if it's there problem.

I and some others were once put I a taxi to Guildford from Gatwick Airport due to bad weather and no trains running.
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How will that help? Were they hoping it could be diverted to dorking instead of tattenham?

Perhaps they could rebel and get it diverted to Dorking. Then the Tottenham Corner passengers could rebel over it not going there.

Then just go round in circles all night until the next morning when all the services start running again!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The simple answer is a taxi at the expense of the TOC as they are obliged to get you home if it's there problem.

I and some others were once put I a taxi to Guildford from Gatwick Airport due to bad weather and no trains running.
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Perhaps they could rebel and get it diverted to Dorking. Then the Tottenham Corner passengers could rebel over it not going there.

Then just go round in circles all night until the next morning when all the services start running again!

Ah, for Cobham line passengers for stations beyond Surbiton - Cobham only, because the passengers who want Waterloo - Surbiton are catered for by 0020, passengers Effingham - Guildford would be catered for by the extension of 0015, which runs ECS Epsom - Guildford on most days.

So the number of taxi's required would be smaller and you can always shove at least 4 in 1 taxi to the same station.