Southern 4th Brighton Express starts 5 September

[radamfi]

According to

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May11/timetables/Table186.pdf

the 4th Brighton Express per hour (calling at East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Hassocks) starts on 5 September.

This service was previously blocked by FCC.

Firstly, how did Southern get it passed this time?

Secondly, why doesn't it start from the beginning of the summer timetable?

 

[swt_passenger]

There's some new correspondence on the timetables disputes panel website about the 4th service, but from what I can work out it only concerns the Saturday service from September - and it reads as if the Weekday service has again been binned.

It's item TTP384 in the list here, if you want to look it up, and try and make sense of it all. Pretty heavy going though:

http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New ADC Web/ADC TTP determinations/TTP list of Determinations.htm

 

[OxtedL]

I had a quick peruse.. made me chuckle.

FCC were trying to argue that the service would impact performance for other operators including EMT, SE, LM and LO because of their wide operation. To which NR cooly said:

Not relevant for SO services as FCC services terminate at London Bridge during this period.

Love it.

Throughout NR are ripping FCC apart...

 

[TomJ93]

Are these 442 run? I do hope so lovely trains

 

[N Levers]

It's item TTP384 in the list here, if you want to look it up, and try and make sense of it all. Pretty heavy going though:

http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New ADC Web/ADC TTP determinations/TTP list of Determinations.htm

The links on this site don't seem to work for me. Keeps going to page not found

EDIT:

Solved, couldn't use Firefox so used IE instead

 

[Anon Mouse]

Are these 442 run? I do hope so lovely trains

They are lush units but the referbishments have spoilt them somewhat, I miss the compartments, buffet cars and lounge areas!

Will the 460's be used on this too, or will they go straight into storage?

 

[TomJ93]

We've discussed this on your flickr I think AM- though I still haven't seen a 444 buffet

I think this will be good, though I never expected Brighton to deserve a limited stop service, especially come Winter when tourism there will be low. But with more units for GatEx it is a logical thing to do.

 

[class377man]

Are these 442 run? I do hope so lovely trains

Doubt it, the current once-hourly service with the above stopping pattern is booked 8x377. Off peak the 442s are on Gatwick Expresses and services that run fast between East Croydon and Brighton. This may change come September of course.

 

[samj1]

Is there even demand for a 4th southern service to Brighton?

 

[N Levers]

Is there even demand for a 4th southern service to Brighton?

Probably not, is that then 8 an hour?

At the detriment of Eastbourne/Littlehampton which will be held longer at Haywards Heath for this train to pass...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A better use of the path would be to split the xx17 Vic - Eastbourne/Littlehapton into 2 separate trains, an xx17 to Eastbourne/Ore and an xx21 to Littlehampton. The xx47 would still stay as a splitter.

A similar outcome would also be acheived on the up services aswell. xx58 arrival at Vic split into xx54 from Eastbourne, xx58 from Littlehapton.

 

[Lrd]

Will the 460's be used on this too, or will they go straight into storage?

The 460's will be gone by the end of the month apparently. (Or in time for May TT change)

 

[Anon Mouse]

The 460's will be gone by the end of the month apparently. (Or in time for May TT change)

That will be such a waste if they go straight into storage, unless another TOC are getting them but I cant see who would make use of them

 

[MCR247]

They are going into storage until they find a new home. If they don't go to SWT I can imagine them being scrapped quite early in their life

 

[Southern]

Looking at one of the journey planners, the current xx21 departure from Victoria and xx58 return from Brighton no longer appear. Instead, there is an xx51 with the same stopping pattern but an additional call at Burgess Hill. Return shows as xx25. As for demand, I think there is, especially in the warmer months. From the May timetable change, Sunday services get speeded up between London - Croydon and the service frequencies are bought more in line with the Weekday/Saturday patterns, i.e. half hourly Victoria - Brighton. I remember a few summers ago boarding one at Gatwick, 12 377 with all but the rear carriage full.

 

[ushawk]

Not sure about this, means Brighton now has double the amount of Victoria trains than Eastbourne/Littlehampton. Are the current 3 Victoria services an hour completely full to warrant a 4th service ? That and Brighton also have the FCC services to London.

 

[radamfi]

The links given earlier didn't work because the last slash was incorrectly set to be a back slash and not a forward slash. The correct links are shown below:

http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/N...4 Joint Submissions/Southern's submission.zip

http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/N...erminations/TTP 384 Joint Submissions/fcc.zip

http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/N...TTP 384 Joint Submissions/NR's submission.pdf

From a brief perusal it appears that FCC have merely resubmitted their previous objection to the December 2010 timetable change, which was for a 4th Southern train from Monday to Saturday. The Southern and Network Rail documents were updated to consider only a Saturday service. Hence FCC have embarrassingly appeared to highlight performance issues north of the Thames even though the FCC service terminates at London Bridge on Saturdays.

Southern consider the 4th train case stronger this time around because the fact that it will only be on Saturdays has a number of advantages:

1. Mitigation measures to avoid delays caused by this new service can be targeted on one day instead of being spread across the week.

2. London Victoria is a far more attractive destination than London Bridge on Saturdays due to a greater proportion of leisure travellers.

3. The test trains using that slot were carried out on a Saturday which showed no adverse effects.

4. Possible knock on effects to other services would be less likely on a Saturday due to better performance on Saturday.

It was made clear that the service was intended to be served by a 377 which is less likely to cause delay than a 442.

 

[Caped Crusader]

It was made clear that the service was intended to be served by a 377 which is less likely to cause delay than a 442.

And what does this say about the world's first dedicated airport rail link :cry:

 

[Minstral25]

And what does this say about the world's first dedicated airport rail link :cry:

It's in the way get rid of it.

Takes up valuable line space, runs half empty most of the time and does nothing for the majority of the passengers on the BML

 

[Aictos]

It's in the way get rid of it.

Takes up valuable line space, runs half empty most of the time and does nothing for the majority of the passengers on the BML

Southern should have asked for a batch of 379s which would be perfect for both airport and long distance work, leaving the 442s to run the express services.

Makes you think though that if WAGN didn't convert these 317s when they did, they could have gone with a AC version of the 460s to replace the 322s which would have been perfect for it.