Southeastern unwilling to hold train for connection

[BluePenguin]

I am on my way back from London Victoria after a lovey day at Winter Wonderland with some friends. I noticed that this train terminates at Dover at 21:10 which is the same time the service towards Ramsgate arrives.

I sent Southeastern a tweet to ask to thek hold my connecting train and their unhelpful reply said that it would not be possible as the minium connecfion time was 4 minutes. This is not what I asked at all! Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

I asked the conductor whether he could contact his colleague on the other train who said "No, as there is no conductor on that train as it is a high speed train and everything is controlled by the driver". So it looks as though I will have to dash off the train when we get to Dover and run across the foot bridge and hope I make it before the doors close. Otherwise I will have a 40 minute wait which is not appealing:

Can anyone enlighten me as to how long the minimum connection for a station has anything to do with not being able to hold the doors open for 1 minute longer? Also, high speeds trains DO have staff! So why was I lied to by the conductor on the train from Victoria?

 

[cactustwirly]

I am on my way back from London Victoria after a lovey day at Winter Wonderland with some friends. I noticed that this train terminates at Dover at 21:10 which is the same time the service towards Ramsgate arrives.

I sent Southeastern a tweet to ask to thek hold my connecting train and their unhelpful reply said that it would not be possible as the minium connecfion time was 4 minutes. This is not what I asked at all! Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

I asked the conductor whether he could contact his colleague on the other train who said "No, as there is no conductor on that train as it is a high speed train and everything is controlled by the driver". So it looks as though I will have to dash off the train when we get to Dover and run across the foot bridge and hope I make it before the doors close. Otherwise I will have a 40 minute wait which is not appealing:

Can anyone enlighten me as to how long the minimum connection for a station has anything to do with not being able to hold the doors open for 1 minute longer? Also, high speeds trains DO have staff! So why was I lied to by the conductor on the train from Victoria?

I don't see why the service should be held?
It's not within the minimum connecting time

 

[Hadders]

I am on my way back from London Victoria after a lovey day at Winter Wonderland with some friends. I noticed that this train terminates at Dover at 21:10 which is the same time the service towards Ramsgate arrives.

I sent Southeastern a tweet to ask to thek hold my connecting train and their unhelpful reply said that it would not be possible as the minium connecfion time was 4 minutes. This is not what I asked at all! Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

I asked the conductor whether he could contact his colleague on the other train who said "No, as there is no conductor on that train as it is a high speed train and everything is controlled by the driver". So it looks as though I will have to dash off the train when we get to Dover and run across the foot bridge and hope I make it before the doors close. Otherwise I will have a 40 minute wait which is not appealing:

Can anyone enlighten me as to how long the minimum connection for a station has anything to do with not being able to hold the doors open for 1 minute longer? Also, high speeds trains DO have staff! So why was I lied to by the conductor on the train from Victoria?

The minimum connection time has nothing to do with your question but why should they hold the train for you? It's a rather unfortunate bit of timetabling but that's sometimes the way it is.

 

[BluePenguin]

I don't see why the service should be held?
It's not within the minimum connecting time

But I know it isn't! My point is why did they make up nonsense instead of simply saying no? They hold services all the time for other people

 

[BluePenguin]

The minimum connection time has nothing to do with your question but why should they hold the train for you? It's a rather unfortunate bit of timetabling but that's sometimes the way it is.

Well, they don't have to and I half was not expecting them to. However considering how often they DO hold trains when people request it on Twitter, it made no sense to me when my tweet was replied to with rubbish.

 

[theironroad]

I am on my way back from London Victoria after a lovey day at Winter Wonderland with some friends. I noticed that this train terminates at Dover at 21:10 which is the same time the service towards Ramsgate arrives.

I sent Southeastern a tweet to ask to thek hold my connecting train and their unhelpful reply said that it would not be possible as the minium connecfion time was 4 minutes. This is not what I asked at all! Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

I asked the conductor whether he could contact his colleague on the other train who said "No, as there is no conductor on that train as it is a high speed train and everything is controlled by the driver". So it looks as though I will have to dash off the train when we get to Dover and run across the foot bridge and hope I make it before the doors close. Otherwise I will have a 40 minute wait which is not appealing:

Can anyone enlighten me as to how long the minimum connection for a station has anything to do with not being able to hold the doors open for 1 minute longer? Also, high speeds trains DO have staff! So why was I lied to by the conductor on the train from Victoria?

When you go around calling people morons and expect the railway to runs personalized timetable for you, are you surprised you hit a brick wall.

I'm sure your lovely day out wouldn't have been spoilt by a online rant if you'd planned your return journey options beforehand.

 

[CC 72100]

But I know it isn't! My point is why did they make up nonsense instead of simply saying no? They hold services all the time for other people

'All the time' - what, when trains are running on time?

Services will only be held when authorised by Control and when what normally be a valid connection is put in doubt by late running or other disruption. Say for example if your 2nd train was actually timetabled to depart 7 minutes after your train arrived, but this original train was running 10 minutes late - it would normally be a connection and so the hold may be granted.

Just because two trains depart at the same time and it's annoyingly inconvenient that they therefore don't provide a connection is not valid grounds for a hold to be granted.

 

[robbeech]

It’s not a valid connection. There’s no reason to hold it. That attitude Will get you nowhere. I suppose if they DID hold the connection and the train was delayed by 30 minutes on the way you’d be absolutely livid when they didn’t pay out delay repay too. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[DarloRich]

it happens all the time on the Marston Vale line. Suck it up.

Why should those on time suffer for your convenience?

 

[Meole]

Why not get a direct train to Ramsgate ?

 

[BluePenguin]

When you go around calling people morons and expect the railway to runs personalized timetable for you, are you surprised you hit a brick wall.

I'm sure your lovely day out wouldn't have been spoilt by a online rant if you'd planned your return journey options beforehand.

I was not expecting anything. I had planned to come back a much quicker route - a journey of over 2 hours was never part of the plan

Why not get a direct train to Ramsgate ?

I was not going to Ramsgate, I was talking about the train between Dover and Ramsgate

it happens all the time on the Marston Vale line. Suck it up.

Why should those on time suffer for your convenience?

That sucks, I will count myself luck to not experience this too often

It’s not a valid connection. There’s no reason to hold it. That attitude Will get you nowhere. I suppose if they DID hold the connection and the train was delayed by 30 minutes on the way you’d be absolutely livid when they didn’t pay out delay repay too. You can’t have it both ways.

There was no reason to hold it.....but they could have been kind and done me a favour? I guess it does works both ways. But if you don't ask you don't get....and then you still probably won't get lol

 

[CC 72100]

There was no reason to hold it.....but they could have been kind and done me a favour? I guess it does works both ways. But if you don't ask you don't get....and then you still probably won't get lol

Would it have been a favour to everybody else on that train who would have appreciated leaving on time and may have connections (trains, buses, other commitments etc.) down the line?

 

[theironroad]

I don't know the details of the area or these particular trains.

However, if a lot of people could make use of a better connection between these two trains then it's worth a !of of people submitting a request to the toc to see if it can be amended. Obviously a lot will depend on what happens in the trains journies and whether pathing is available amongst a host of other considerations.

 

[BluePenguin]

'All the time' - what, when trains are running on time?

Services will only be held when authorised by Control and when what normally be a valid connection is put in doubt by late running or other disruption. Say for example if your 2nd train was actually timetabled to depart 7 minutes after your train arrived, but this original train was running 10 minutes late - it would normally be a connection and so the hold may be granted.

Just because two trains depart at the same time and it's annoyingly inconvenient that they therefore don't provide a connection is not valid grounds for a hold to be granted.

Hmmm you make a good point. I can't argue with that. I will have a nice cup of tea, a sulk and be grateful I don't live on the Marston Vale Line.

But to answer your question yes. For example, when travelling from Deal to Canterbury. Service from Deal arrives into Dover Priory minutes before the service to Canterbury East leaves. Sometimes if a tweet is sent then the service is held

Would it have been a favour to everybody else on that train who would have appreciated leaving on time and may have connections (trains, buses, other commitments etc.) down the line?

No I am sure 1 minute is not an issue. This is a long standing problem at Grove Park with trains to Bromley North too apparently

However, if a lot of people could make use of a better connection between these two trains then it's worth a !of of people submitting a request to the toc to see if it can be amended.

Please could you correct this? I can't make out what you meant

 

[CC 72100]

No I am sure 1 minute is not an issue. This is a long standing problem at Grove Park with trains to Bromley North too apparently

I'm not an expert on the rail geography of that part of the world, but 1 minute can absolutely be an issue.

I've seen a half a minute delay (so not even reportable under normal circumstances) through knock on impact cause over 100 delay minutes which is a lot of journeys affected and a lot of money for the responsible TOC.

Small delays can snowball - hence the focus on right time departures from origin.

 

[A Challenge]

Surely this isn't such a problem on a self-contained branch like the Bromley North line?

 

[BluePenguin]

Surely this isn't such a problem on a self-contained branch like the Bromley North line?

There is a video on YouTube which claims that there are issues. I will find it when I get back

 

[GW43125]

There is a video on YouTube which claims that there are issues. I will find it when I get back

Some of the turnarounds are as short as 2 minutes. In these cases a right-time departure is crucial or the return workings will also be late, and it'll spiral.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you had taken the 19:04 (Victoria Line) service to St Pancras and then the 19:37 to Ramsgate. You would have arrived at Walmer at 20:55

 

[Mathew S]

Please could you correct this? I can't make out what you meant

It makes sense. He's saying that if there are a lot of people who would like the timetable changed to make this a valid connection then they should/could all tweet/email the TOC to ask them to change the timetable accordingly.

 

[IanD]

Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

Can't say that I blame him.

 

[BluePenguin]

If you had taken the 19:04 (Victoria Line) service to St Pancras and then the 19:37 to Ramsgate. You would have arrived at Walmer at 20:55

Thanks, if only it was as easy as that every time! Underground is a lot of hassle and extra expense. Next time I will leave earlier and focus on doing this instead.

Friends were heading back to Sittingbourne, Herne Bay and Margate and we wanted to travel in each others company for a little longer so took the train from Victoria and they changed at Faversham whilst I stayed on to Dover. In hindsight I could have saved time I suppose.

Can't say that I blame him.

Why is that? Asking for a favour is hardly asking for the world. Angry rants come after being denied something not before. Plus they all feature on here so no staff have been annoyed either.

 

[ComUtoR]

Your response to their tweet wasn't exactly polite and came across rather rude. You also have history with them. I know of at least one member of staff that was glad you were not helped and hopes that your sense of entitlement doesn't continue. Because, quite frankly they are annoyed at the language used on here.

 

[BluePenguin]

Home sweet home. I am back now, it is all over

 

[MichaelAMW]

I sent Southeastern a tweet to ask to thek hold my connecting train and their unhelpful reply said that it would not be possible as the minium connecfion time was 4 minutes. This is not what I asked at all! Stupid moron clearly did not want to help me out.

Perhaps you could carefully explain why you believe the person you contacted to be a stupid moron and why you believe they were unhelpful. They appear to have explained why trains that don't connect don't connect, which strikes me as extremely helpful as it concisely and honestly answered your question. I am reasonably sure a stupid moron could not have composed such a succinct reply, even though it might not have been what you wanted to hear.

I appreciate that the 40-minute wait that arose out of your over-ambitious planning might have meant you have perished on a bench on Dover Priory station but, if not, do let us know you are alright.

 

[BluePenguin]

Your response to their tweet wasn't exactly polite and came across rather rude. You also have history with them. I know of at least one member of staff that was glad you were not helped and hopes that your sense of entitlement doesn't continue. Because, quite frankly they are annoyed at the language used on here.

They did not answer my question? There was no sense of entilement, I couldn't understand what were talking about minimum connections etc. If they were glad I was not helped then that is not good. Seems gossip travels far....won't be botherig again

 

[PHILIPE]

Train from Victoria booked arrive 2110, train for Ramsgate booked depart at 2110. Minimum connection time for a train 4 minutes. If the Ramsgate left at 2114 or later it would be a connection so it isn't. End of story.

 

[TurbostarFan]

They did not answer my question? There was no sense of entilement, I couldn't understand what were talking about minimum connections etc. If they were glad I was not helped then that is not good. Seems gossip travels far....won't be botherig again

That's fine then, I would agree that Southeastern were within their rights to refuse to hold the train. I will point out that the high speed services will always have an Onboard Manager onboard but are still Driver Only Operated and do not have a guard onboard.

 

[BluePenguin]

Perhaps you could carefully explain why you believe the person you contacted to be a stupid moron and why you believe they were unhelpful. They appear to have explained why trains that don't connect don't connect, which strikes me as extremely helpful as it concisely and honestly answered your question. I am reasonably sure a stupid moron could not have composed such a succinct reply, even though it might not have been what you wanted to hear.

I appreciate that the 40-minute wait that arose out of your over-ambitious planning might have meant you have perished on a bench on Dover Priory station but, if not, do let us know you are alright.

Well, I asked whether a train could be held and expected a simple yes or no. I got a confusing reply about minimum connection times that was not helpful as it did not acklowledge why the answer was no, which was stupid. Of course I knew it was not an official connection and was asking for a favour. I deemed this behaviour moronic.

As for the conductor, telling me that high speeds trains don't have staff that is simply untrue. A friendly voice made an annoucement as I boarded.

Yes I am fine thank you

 

[TurbostarFan]

Well, I asked whether a train could be held and expected a simple yes or no. I got a confusing reply about minimum connection times that was not helpful as it did not acklowledge why the answer was no, which was stupid. Of course I knew it was not an official connection and was asking for a favour. I deemed this behaviour moronic.

As for the conductor, telling me that high speeds trains don't have staff that is simply untrue. A friendly voice made an annoucement as I boarded.

I would say that is a far point, you are free to take it up with Southeastern. They will likely explain to you that it wouldn't be operationally nor economically viable to delay the train for an unofficial connection. Each minute of delay costs at least £100.00 if not more!

You make a fair point there, funnily enough there are some trains on which the driver does the announcements. However they still make a good point in that onboard these services (which are Driver Only Operated) everything is operated by the driver.