Southeastern no more 1st class on long-distance services

[Benjwri]

Yes, I recognise that the current unfit for purpose ticket gates on the British rail network are no deterent for people prepared to force them (or even climb over them), which may be the basis for your comment.

And are, of course, left open half the time anyways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2022 ==

Fire safety (which we do better than most countries) means they have to be able to be burst through.

NY metro seems to be years ahead of the UK in having a separate emergency exit, which is obviously misused, but only so in one direction and far easier to spot

 

[island]

I was planning on trying out the 1st class seats on a trip to Tonbridge this morning but was thwarted by the snow.

 

[alistairlees]

I was planning on trying out the 1st class seats on a trip to Tonbridge this morning but was thwarted by the snow.

You will discover that they are actually less comfortable than standard class.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You will discover that they are actually less comfortable than standard class.

What prompts you to say that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What prompts you to say that?

While I do say that for LNR (I know you don't agree) I thought on Electrostars they were the same in both classes.

 

[Starmill]

While I do say that for LNR (I know you don't agree) I thought on Electrostars they were the same in both classes.

Not on 375s. The cushions are shaped differently.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While I do say that for LNR (I know you don't agree) I thought on Electrostars they were the same in both classes.

Well yes, they're very similar (not the same on 375s although they are on 377s) hence my confusion.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Dft first proposed total removal of Southeastern first class in the Dec 2017 franchise ITT, (although IIRC that competition petered out eventually), so the writing was already on the wall.

I’m not sure if it should be seen as that much of a surprise…

It was actually planned by Connex in the late 1990s which is why the 375s were built without any dedicated First Class provision. Then Connex realised that there was still more than £20m per year of First Class income that they would lose, so a 'First Class' was cobbled into the new trains. All that was then needed was two decades of pathetic accommodation, minimal ticket checking, not including 1st class on the 395s and COVID to ensure that hardly anyone was daft enough to still be paying for First Class and hey presto! it could be done away with

 

[swt_passenger]

It was actually planned by Connex in the late 1990s which is why the 375s were built without any dedicated First Class provision. Then Connex realised that there was still more than £20m per year of First Class income that they would lose, so a 'First Class' was cobbled into the new trains. All that was then needed was two decades of pathetic accommodation, minimal ticket checking, not including 1st class on the 395s and COVID to ensure that hardly anyone was daft enough to still be paying for First Class and hey presto! it could be done away with

Ah, definitely a long term cunning plan after all. I wonder if anyone involved in it lasted the whole 20 odd years in post?…

 

[alistairlees]

What prompts you to say that?

That they actually are less comfortable. Seats in 1st class are more 'shaped' in the padding, even though they look the same as those in Standard Class (apart from the covering). So, unless you are exactly the same shape as the seats in 1st class, you will find them less confortable.

Note that I am referring to 375/3, 375/6, 375/7 and 375/8 here. 375/9 have high density seating in standard class, so 1st class seating on those is better.

 

[redengine]

Yes. High Speed and Metro services are already standard class only so the change is only for the Mainline services. A few Metro services use class 465/9 but the first class areas can be used by standard class ticket holders.

I find it truly bizarre that SE HS doesn't have first class. I only noticed this when I wanted to go to Broadstairs and found I couldn't buy a first class ticket – really a bit rubbish to be stuck in a queue buying breakfast in Pret a Manger at St Pancras, rather than getting a GWR level of service on the train. No surprise that first is failing on SE's slow trains into Victoria and Charing Cross if they can't be bothered to provide it on their fast ones into St Pancras.

 

[miklcct]

I find it truly bizarre that SE HS doesn't have first class. I only noticed this when I wanted to go to Broadstairs and found I couldn't buy a first class ticket – really a bit rubbish to be stuck in a queue buying breakfast in Pret a Manger at St Pancras, rather than getting a GWR level of service on the train. No surprise that first is failing on SE's slow trains into Victoria and Charing Cross if they can't be bothered to provide it on their fast ones into St Pancras.

I don't see the point of first class on HS1. The distance is not long enough to be considered intercity, with the journey time from London to Ashford just 37 minutes because it's so fast. It is more like a commuter train instead. First class is just a waste of space, considering that the target audience is commuters and these trains can really be packed in peak hours.

 

[JonathanH]

Sitting in the contoured former first class seat on 375910 this evening it does seem that you need to have the right shape to make it seem comfortable relative to the equivalent standard class seat. Good to try it out without having to pay a first class fare.

On another matter, also noted that plug sockets are starting to be fitted throughout the 375s, the first examples are in the 375/7 fleet with a number of low numbered 375/7s seen with plug sockets, in the same design as the Southern 377/4s.

 

[WizCastro197]

Sitting in the contoured former first class seat on 375910 this evening it does seem that you need to have the right shape to make it seem comfortable relative to the equivalent standard class seat.

Also noted that plug sockets are starting to be fitted, the first examples are in the 375/7 fleet with a number of low numbered 375/7s seen with plug sockets, in the same design as the Southern 377/4s.

Where are these being retrofitted at?

 

[Snow1964]

I don't see the point of first class on HS1. The distance is not long enough to be considered intercity, with the journey time from London to Ashford just 37 minutes because it's so fast. It is more like a commuter train instead. First class is just a waste of space, considering that the target audience is commuters and these trains can really be packed in peak hours.

Not everyone wants the inconsistent variable standards of standard class, so risk excluding anyone that can afford to pay for expensive tickets. If someone has to drive over an hour to nearest railhead with first class, there is a good chance they will drive whole route and rail will lose out overall as driving will become acceptable alternative.

If you look at UK rail network map (excluding lines and stations without first class), not really a National network, just a collection of selected routes, some of which don’t even join up.

My view is dropping first class on HS1 is effectively saying Kent is second class area as first class is not needed.

 

[miklcct]

Not everyone wants the inconsistent variable standards of standard class, so risk excluding anyone that can afford to pay for expensive tickets. If someone has to drive over an hour to nearest railhead with first class, there is a good chance they will drive whole route and rail will lose out overall as driving will become acceptable alternative.

If you look at UK rail network map (excluding lines and stations without first class), not really a National network, just a collection of selected routes, some of which don’t even join up.

My view is dropping first class on HS1 is effectively saying Kent is second class area as first class is not needed.

If they are rich enough to drive the whole way let them drive anyway, and keep the space for us who aren't rich and can't afford a car to take standard class.

 

[Stephen42]

Not everyone wants the inconsistent variable standards of standard class, so risk excluding anyone that can afford to pay for expensive tickets. If someone has to drive over an hour to nearest railhead with first class, there is a good chance they will drive whole route and rail will lose out overall as driving will become acceptable alternative.

If you look at UK rail network map (excluding lines and stations without first class), not really a National network, just a collection of selected routes, some of which don’t even join up.

My view is dropping first class on HS1 is effectively saying Kent is second class area as first class is not needed.

HS1 hasn't had first class from the start. On many Southeastern trains first class was the same seats as standard with a better chance of getting a seat. First class tickets are still available for flows where most of the journey does have first class.

While a few people may stop travelling, other standard class passengers may travel more as the extra capacity means they now do get a seat.

 

[Doppelganger]

My view is dropping first class on HS1 is effectively saying Kent is second class area as first class is not needed.

Really? Kent is 2nd class because the railway service doesn't convey 1st class?

As was said before HS1 never had 1st, so what exactly are you try to say?

I'll be the first to say that much of Kent is a sh17 hole, but it doesn't take a lack of a premium train service to make it so and so I have to question your rationale here.

 

[yorksrob]

Kent is a very beautiful county in most parts, but 1st class was a dead duck once they'd got rid of compartments.

 

[greatkingrat]

Not everyone wants the inconsistent variable standards of standard class, so risk excluding anyone that can afford to pay for expensive tickets. If someone has to drive over an hour to nearest railhead with first class, there is a good chance they will drive whole route and rail will lose out overall as driving will become acceptable alternative.

If you look at UK rail network map (excluding lines and stations without first class), not really a National network, just a collection of selected routes, some of which don’t even join up.

My view is dropping first class on HS1 is effectively saying Kent is second class area as first class is not needed.

For people commuting from Kent to Central London, driving isn't a realistic option, however rich they may be.

 

[miklcct]

For people commuting from Kent to Central London, driving isn't a realistic option, however rich they may be.

For people commuting from Kent to East (including Stratford) / South London, driving is a realistic option.

 

[Watershed]

For people commuting from Kent to East (including Stratford) / South London, driving is a realistic option.

People from outer Kent might also realistically park up at one of the many P&R stations closer to London, such as Ebbsfleet. Though the saving by commuting from Ebbsfleet rather than Ashford isn't very significant.

 

[RJ]

I find it truly bizarre that SE HS doesn't have first class. I only noticed this when I wanted to go to Broadstairs and found I couldn't buy a first class ticket – really a bit rubbish to be stuck in a queue buying breakfast in Pret a Manger at St Pancras, rather than getting a GWR level of service on the train. No surprise that first is failing on SE's slow trains into Victoria and Charing Cross if they can't be bothered to provide it on their fast ones into St Pancras.

You’re already supposed to pay a premium for using those services and the trains are nicer than their classic lines counterparts. It is a premium hard product really and there are food outlets at or near many of the stations served by those trains.