Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[ScotGG]

It won't be longitudinal. This is one of those things that come up that I can't take seriously. Even if devolved TfL wouldn't do it as they havn't on the Elizabeth line. They have on LO as most lines max out at 5-car and are packed. SE is 8-12 car.

It'll be like the 707s or 376s. More standing space but still enough "standard" seats if that's your choice. Hopefully in formations that can make use of the 8 or 12-car platforms (with SDO unlike the Networkers) which would be good enough for the next 40 years. Not to do so would be stupid. Class 376 s and 707s don't maximise capacity as it is maxing out at 10-car. To continue that with new stock is dumb short-termism.

 

[GilfachFargoed]

It won't be longitudinal. This is one of those things that come up that I can't take seriously. Even if devolved TfL wouldn't do it as they havn't on the Elizabeth line. They have on LO as most lines max out at 5-car and are packed. SE is 8-12 car.

It'll be like the 707s or 376s. More standing space but still enough "standard" seats if that's your choice. Hopefully in formations that can make use of the 8 or 12-car platforms (with SDO unlike the Networkers) which would be good enough for the next 40 years. Not to do so would be stupid. Class 376 s and 707s don't maximise capacity as it is maxing out at 10-car. To continue that with new stock is dumb short-termism.

TfL were going to go all longitudinal on the Elizabeth line, but changed tack under stakeholder pressure.

 

[D365]

Was the full tender specification details published?

I would be surprised if they are published in the public domain at this stage of the procurement exercise.

 

[brad465]

the issue is that 'some sidings and depot space' is actually quite a lot, Grove Park is capable but Slade Green only has three roads and does not have a 12 car headshunt so is only accessible via Slade Green or towards Dartford/Crayford. Dartford only has the Platforms and one up siding (then only 4 car space left on that siding so makes more sense to berth 2 x 8 cars). Gillingham does not have any 12 car roads and even though Grosvenor Sidings at Victoria does its limited by platform lengths at the station and platform lengths for passenger services on the Victoria metro routes.

There are actually two sidings at Dartford that could take 12 (or even 16 car as you mention), however one of them has been de-electrified and locked out of use for safety reasons around third rail passage. However, the ordering of a fleet with battery capability for use in depots, etc., something Steve White has made no secret of, would presumably allow that siding to be usable again. The Sidcup siding is also 12-car, and these days it seems to stable an 8-car there most nights so counts as a stabling location.

There are also currently timetabled 12-car diagrams that gain and lose 4-cars during the day, so a 12-car doesn't always go into a depot in that form.

SDO would fix the issues as you mentioned but it doesnt assist passengers who are never pay attention or listen to the announcements and inevitably end up in the coach off the platform or in the tunnel. Erith Loop standage is also an issue so if any services need to dwell there for any period of time it would prevent signalling at either end of the loop and therefore any Woolwich/Bexleyheath circular service wouldnt be able to be formed of 12 coaches.

Loop services probably don't need to be 12-car, the focus of 12s would be into Charing X.

Similarly Tanners Hill towards Lewisham cannot take 12 coaches and would block the signal section on the Up Kent Fast.

This hasn't stopped plenty of 12-car services completing this move on Sevenoaks' and Dartford via Bexleyheath services.

 

[frankmoh]

Alstom to overhaul the bogies and gearboxes on the BREL/ABB 465s.

Source:

Alstom, global leader in smart and sustainable mobility, has secured a £20 million (€22.9 million) contract with Eversholt Rail for the overhaul of almost 400 bogies for Southeastern’s Class 465 Networker fleet in the UK.

The project covers up to 398 power bogies shared across 97 four-car units, which will undergo a full mileage-based overhaul at Alstom’s Crewe Works over two years. The scope includes

It seems like these units at least have a bit more life left in them. The MetCam units don't seem to be as lucky.

 

[Mattplans]

Doesn't inspire confidence that a replacement is over the horizon.

I also wonder at what times is the Hayes Line ranger not free?

 

[D365]

Doesn't inspire confidence that a replacement is over the horizon.

A replacement fleet won’t be deployed within the space of two years.

 

[brad465]

Basically a C6 overhaul. Presumably this will get the long-term dormant units like 465005 and 178 back into service?

 

[ScotGG]

A replacement fleet won’t be deployed within the space of two years.

Is it a bit more than just giving two years more life?

Suggesting they have 5-10 years left and any new order pushed back?

 

[dan2611_]

A replacement fleet won’t be deployed within the space of two years.

£20million for two years? That seems rather economically bonkers if you ask me

Suggesting they have 5-10 years left and any new order pushed back?

I would suggest this is more likely.

 

[Stephen42]

Is it a bit more than just giving two years more life?

Suggesting they have 5-10 years left and any new order pushed back?

It would extend the bogies life for longer. This is scheduled mileage based maintenance with the trains being withdrawn from service if not done when they reach that mileage. There is no prospect of replacement stock being available in time and so it's essentially must do. It's sunk cost fallacy to push back the new order and redo the competition which likely increases costs just as much. All the other factors favouring a new fleet will continue to apply.

The Alstom article includes this statement:

The legacy Alstom-built Networkers first entered passenger service in 1992 and the overhaul will enable Southeastern to remain operating them while procurement continues for a more accessible replacement Metro fleet.

If the new fleet is ordered next year, it's normal to take at least two years to get the first one in service and depending on size could take two years to fully roll out from there. That would mean some Networkers would still be around in 2030. And there's plenty of examples of new stock introduction/rollout not going swimmingly so could be longer still.

There are actually two sidings at Dartford that could take 12 (or even 16 car as you mention), however one of them has been de-electrified and locked out of use for safety reasons around third rail passage. However, the ordering of a fleet with battery capability for use in depots, etc., something Steve White has made no secret of, would presumably allow that siding to be usable again. The Sidcup siding is also 12-car, and these days it seems to stable an 8-car there most nights so counts as a stabling location.

There are also currently timetabled 12-car diagrams that gain and lose 4-cars during the day, so a 12-car doesn't always go into a depot in that form.

Loop services probably don't need to be 12-car, the focus of 12s would be into Charing X.

This hasn't stopped plenty of 12-car services completing this move on Sevenoaks' and Dartford via Bexleyheath services.

Sidcup Siding is a back up stabling location, it's got use recently due to the problem that impacted Dartford Up Sidings. Which is a sign of how constrained the depot/stabling situation is with Southeastern. One of the other factors that could impact the new fleet replacement timescale is how much work needs to be done for stabling or at depots to support the rollout.

 

[LUYMun]

Alstom to overhaul the bogies and gearboxes on the BREL/ABB 465s.

It seems like these units at least have a bit more life left in them. The MetCam units don't seem to be as lucky.

At least they’ll give the spot hire locos (and lineside photographers) some work

 

[brad465]

At least they’ll give the spot hire locos (and lineside photographers) some work

BREL units seem to go "off piste" far less than the MetCam units have done, even ignoring the withdrawal moves the latter have seen. IIRC, the last time BREL units left was for PRM refurbishment work something like a decade ago.

 

[hwl]

Alstom to overhaul the bogies and gearboxes on the BREL/ABB 465s.

Source:


It seems like these units at least have a bit more life left in them. The MetCam units don't seem to be as lucky.

DfT effectively refused to sign off on spending on certain maintenance contracts in an attempt to see if the contracts were really worth it, the Brush/ABB/Hitachi 465s were one test case. (In a similar way to price discovery on streaming services where films/series come and go and the two parties attempt to see how the price curve decreases as the item is no longer new).
Seasoned rail staff might describe this as the clean up phase post "FAFO".

 

[Mastermind88]

There are actually two sidings at Dartford that could take 12 (or even 16 car as you mention), however one of them has been de-electrified and locked out of use for safety reasons around third rail passage. However, the ordering of a fleet with battery capability for use in depots, etc., something Steve White has made no secret of, would presumably allow that siding to be usable again. The Sidcup siding is also 12-car, and these days it seems to stable an 8-car there most nights so counts as a stabling location.

There are also currently timetabled 12-car diagrams that gain and lose 4-cars during the day, so a 12-car doesn't always go into a depot in that form.

Loop services probably don't need to be 12-car, the focus of 12s would be into Charing X.

This hasn't stopped plenty of 12-car services completing this move on Sevenoaks' and Dartford via Bexleyheath services.

You are correct Up Siding 1 is 16 coaches and can berth any length, however Up Siding 2 when it was in operation may be 14 coaches in length but the walkway to access Up Siding 1 sits at the mid point of Up Siding 2 and it was then split into two roads of 6 and 8 lengths so it would of never been able to have anything longer than 8 coaches without blocking that walkway

As a previous poster also mentions Sidcup Siding is a backup road is not used in normal berthing only as a lesser last resort, i believe there have been issues there with youths throwing things through the fence at train crew in the past. There are other similar berthing locations all with differing issues like regular graffiti attacks and lighting problems which make berthing extremely difficult on Southeastern

 

[Chorley Cake]

Does anybody know what the 466 is in Doncaster West Yard opposite the station platforms ?

Also, whereabouts of 466041 ? Haven’t noticed it on RTT recently.

 

[_toommm_]

Does anybody know what the 466 is in Doncaster West Yard opposite the station platforms ?

Also, whereabouts of 466041 ? Haven’t noticed it on RTT recently.

466016 in the West Yard. Been there for nearly four years now as a spares donor.

 

[Bodiam]

As a previous poster also mentions Sidcup Siding is a backup road is not used in normal berthing only as a lesser last resort, i believe there have been issues there with youths throwing things through the fence at train crew in the past. There are other similar berthing locations all with differing issues like regular graffiti attacks and lighting problems which make berthing extremely difficult on Southeastern

I lived in Sidcup and used the station more or less regularly until 1996 and don't recall ever seeing the turnback siding used for stabling. In fact when it was first put in around the time of the original Dartford resignalling it was actually a loop and in 1973 I was on an out of sequence down train that was looped and overtaken there.

 

[brad465]

You are correct Up Siding 1 is 16 coaches and can berth any length, however Up Siding 2 when it was in operation may be 14 coaches in length but the walkway to access Up Siding 1 sits at the mid point of Up Siding 2 and it was then split into two roads of 6 and 8 lengths so it would of never been able to have anything longer than 8 coaches without blocking that walkway

Sounds like this siding block could do with a rework, which might happen in conjunction with the new fleet being introduced (as more third rail can be taken out).

 

[FR510]

I lived in Sidcup and used the station more or less regularly until 1996 and don't recall ever seeing the turnback siding used for stabling. In fact when it was first put in around the time of the original Dartford resignalling it was actually a loop and in 1973 I was on an out of sequence down train that was looped and overtaken there.

It has been used for berthing, but only sporadically, normally as a consequence of overnight engineering works somewhere.

 

[brad465]

I've been told that 465005 is finally being moved from the Grosvenor siding, the first move is two 466s going to collect it, then the second I'm guessing is the return move with the unit:

Realtime Trains | 5Z51 0857 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Victoria Grosvenor Shed | 10/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5Z51 0857 departure from Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Victoria Grosvenor Shed on 10/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Z60 1315 Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. | 10/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5Z60 1315 departure from Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. on 10/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[GEC465]

Well something happened apparently and moved caped. I assume 465005 is gonna be a test unit for the overhauls?

 

[brad465]

Well something happened apparently and moved caped. I assume 465005 is gonna be a test unit for the overhauls?

Think this one took its place, which definitely is running and at time of posting, about to finish:

Realtime Trains | 5Z61 1545 Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. | 10/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5Z61 1545 departure from Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. on 10/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[GEC465]

Ah. The 5Z60 showed as caped. Interesting nonetheless owing the BRELs seem to really be running low on motors that haven't been cut out yet

 

[Phil R]

Think this one took its place, which definitely is running and at time of posting, about to finish:

Realtime Trains | 5Z61 1545 Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. | 10/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5Z61 1545 departure from Victoria Grosvenor Shed to Gillingham E.M.U.D. on 10/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

realtimetrains.co.uk

Indeed. Went past Grosvenor Road this afternoon and weird not seeing anything on the wall siding.

 

[D365]

I assume 465005 is gonna be a test unit for the overhauls?

Overhaul of what?

 

[brad465]

Overhaul of what?

The BREL 465s are having C4 overhauls this year and next, with bogies and over components going to Crewe for it.

 

[GEC465]

376017 is the 2nd 376 refurbished

 

[Chorley Cake]

466041 doesn’t appear to have been out much recently. Is it in store awaiting scrapping ? If so, does anybody know of its location ?

 

[50002Superb]

466041 doesn’t appear to have been out much recently. Is it in store awaiting scrapping ? If so, does anybody know of its location ?

TrainMapper has its last location as Tonbridge Jubilee Sidings