Southeastern metro fleet replacement: what should be ordered and what should the unit/train lengths be?

[brad465]

Is there any chance Southeastern will order some 3-car units?

I would assume they will be done with 2-car units once 466s are completely gone, but they could do with more 11-12 car trains, particularly on Tunbridge Wells' services, and on Charing X services down the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines not covered by 376/707s.

Three cars might also be sufficient for the Bromley North line and could be deployed to the other branch lines if 3-car 375s are more useful on mainline services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is there any chance Southeastern will order some 3-car units? I would assume they will be done with 2-car units once 466s are completely gone, but they could do with more 11-12 car trains, particularly on Tunbridge Wells' services, and on Charing X services down the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines not covered by 376/707s. 3-car might also be sufficient for the Bromley North line and could be deployed to the other branch lines if 3-car 375s are more useful on mainline services.

I still think a fleet of 4 and 6 carriage trains would give them the greatest flexibility, for 8 carriage formations on Victoria suburban, 10 carriage formations on routes that currently see 376s and 707s, and 12 carriage formations for the few Charing Cross routes that see 3x 465s in the peak.

 

[Mastermind88]

I still think a fleet of 4 and 6 carriage trains would give them the greatest flexibility, for 8 carriage formations on Victoria suburban, 10 carriage formations on routes that currently see 376s and 707s, and 12 carriage formations for the few Charing Cross routes that see 3x 465s in the peak.

agreed, there are a few notable locations where 12 cars standages are not possible (Erith Loop, Tanners Hill - Lewisham Vale in the Down) and there are also a few platforms which still arent able to fully accept 12 coaches (Waterloo East Platform B is tight and Charing Cross Platforms 4-6) and many of the SE Depots and Sidings are limited with being able to accept 12 cars in the Metro.

Having the ability of being able to run any formation from 4-12 coaches with a mixture of 4 and 6 coach trains makes the most sense and i wouldnt over complicate with 3 cars unless they decide to operate a different length coach than today.

As for seating i wouldnt want longtitudal seating, it works on the tube as the trains dont often rock from side to side but out in the open the trains would make people feel sick on longer distance (the bench like seats on 319s and tip up seats in access areas of trains do that too)

 

[Geogregor]

I still think a fleet of 4 and 6 carriage trains would give them the greatest flexibility, for 8 carriage formations on Victoria suburban, 10 carriage formations on routes that currently see 376s and 707s, and 12 carriage formations for the few Charing Cross routes that see 3x 465s in the peak.

I think they might also go for fixed formations and mix of either 8 + 10 or 8 + 12 carriages. Something similar to what Thameslink has done.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think they might also go for fixed formations and mix of either 8 + 10 or 8 + 12 carriages. Something similar to what Thameslink has done.

Unless they go for all three formations, which seems a bit complicated, you’re getting a reduced formation on at least something there.

Sevenoaks and Dartford via Bexleyheath see 12 car Charing Cross services, from which 10 car services would be a reduction, and most Charing Cross and Cannon St Metro services get regular 10 cars, but many routes are only set up for 10 car max and would get 8s in a fleet of 8s and 12s. That said, I guess SDO could work here where it doesn’t on 465s.

 

[brad465]

I think they might also go for fixed formations and mix of either 8 + 10 or 8 + 12 carriages. Something similar to what Thameslink has done.

I think fixed formations cause more problems for Southeastern than Thameslink. The Bromley North branch for starters would not warrant anything more than 4-car, and the need to chop and change formations between different routes and times of day makes 4-car units better, especially if they go for units with inter-unit gangways.

Installing SDO will deal with issues like Charing X and Woolwich Dockyard, meaning only some sidings and depot space are not 12-car compatible.

 

[Invincible]

Long thread:

Five rolling stock manufacturers compete for Southeastern fleet

The British rail operator Southeastern has issued an invitation to negotiate with five rolling stock manufacturers shortlisted

www.railwaypro.com

The shortlist was published.Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler
Was the full tender specification details published?

 

[Mastermind88]

I think fixed formations cause more problems for Southeastern than Thameslink. The Bromley North branch for starters would not warrant anything more than 4-car, and the need to chop and change formations between different routes and times of day makes 4-car units better, especially if they go for units with inter-unit gangways.

Installing SDO will deal with issues like Charing X and Woolwich Dockyard, meaning only some sidings and depot space are not 12-car compatible.

the issue is that 'some sidings and depot space' is actually quite a lot, Grove Park is capable but Slade Green only has three roads and does not have a 12 car headshunt so is only accessible via Slade Green or towards Dartford/Crayford. Dartford only has the Platforms and one up siding (then only 4 car space left on that siding so makes more sense to berth 2 x 8 cars). Gillingham does not have any 12 car roads and even though Grosvenor Sidings at Victoria does its limited by platform lengths at the station and platform lengths for passenger services on the Victoria metro routes.

SDO would fix the issues as you mentioned but it doesnt assist passengers who are never pay attention or listen to the announcements and inevitably end up in the coach off the platform or in the tunnel. Erith Loop standage is also an issue so if any services need to dwell there for any period of time it would prevent signalling at either end of the loop and therefore any Woolwich/Bexleyheath circular service wouldnt be able to be formed of 12 coaches. Similarly Tanners Hill towards Lewisham cannot take 12 coaches and would block the signal section on the Up Kent Fast.

A mixture of 4s and 6s makes the most sense so that you can run any formation that the SE Network is capable of, any fixed formations would waste mileage in the off peak when the services could be reduced as they currently do.

 

[Mikey C]

SDO would fix the issues as you mentioned but it doesnt assist passengers who are never pay attention or listen to the announcements and inevitably end up in the coach off the platform or in the tunnel.

12 car services would be mainly in the rush hour though, so primarily "regulars".