Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[ScotGG]

Loco hauled carriages abroad perhaps?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think it’s more likely that ERS has purchased 2 coaches for filming purposes (Both DM’s). I believe no intermediate coaches have been moved and I don’t think the 465s can operate without the equipment in the TSO/TSOL.

 

[Mikey C]

I think it’s more likely that ERS has purchased 2 coaches for filming purposes (Both DM’s). I believe no intermediate coaches have been moved and I don’t think the 465s can operate without the equipment in the TSO/TSOL.

Horror movies?

 

[LUYMun]

Horror movies?

"The Taking of Peckham 123"

 

[4BEP]

It would require a huge amount of civils work to accommodate 23m cars on SE routes, the tender documents say that vehicle numbers are based on 23m rolling stock.

Should say based on 20m rolling stock

 

[Wheelnut]

Southeastern are going to be replacing some networkers (not all) with some cascaded stock soon. I was told that a very strong hint was made on an internal colleague briefing today.

 

[PGAT]

Wouldn't that be the final two 707s?

 

[Robski]

Southeastern are going to be replacing some networkers (not all) with some cascaded stock soon. I was told that a very strong hint was made on an internal colleague briefing today.

A contract notice issued last year by SE contained an option for wrapping up to 17 377's, which could be a clue.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Wouldn't that be the final two 707s?

Would be too small for several networker displacements imo

 

[brad465]

Southeastern are going to be replacing some networkers (not all) with some cascaded stock soon. I was told that a very strong hint was made on an internal colleague briefing today.

This won't be news to anyone who has been following the discussions around class 379s, the only question is when such a move will happen. It was speculated to be this December but given it doesn't look like enough 379s will be in service to initiate the talked about cascade it will probably be next year now.

The whole thing though is a metaphor for the mess that is rolling stock management and procurement on the network today though. SE can't get approval for the full fleet replacement they're after (as per the tender notice in 2022), so are having to chip away via cascades that involve knocking over at least 3 dominoes. Not sure desperation is the right word but shambolic certainly.

 

[JonathanH]

Would be too small for several networker displacements imo

The two remaining 707s would be enough to remove two 465s and a 466.

 

[Wheelnut]

Would the 379s be enough to replace networkers on the mainline? Maybe withdraw some more metcams?

 

[JonathanH]

Would the 379s be enough to replace networkers on the mainline? Maybe withdraw some more metcams?

I think you mean 377s, released by 379-led cascade. How many 465/9s remain in service? How many 465s are used on mainline services? I know they still reach Tunbridge Wells.

 

[brad465]

I think you mean 377s, released by 379-led cascade. How many 465/9s remain in service? How many 465s are used on mainline services? I know they still reach Tunbridge Wells.

I believe 24x 465/9s are still in service. If two go when the last 707s arrive, and then another 17 when 377s come over as speculated, that still leaves 5x 465/9s, unless SE are planning a (likely unpopular) fleet reduction.

 

[JonathanH]

I believe 24x 465/9s are still in service. If two go when the last 707s arrive, and then another 17 when 377s come over as speculated, that still leaves 5x 465/9s, unless SE are planning a (likely unpopular) fleet reduction.

You do wonder whether, given the reported unreliability of the 465/9s, they could actually do without them if 17 377s and the remaining 465s offered greater availability.

 

[brad465]

You do wonder whether, given the reported unreliability of the 465/9s, they could actually do without them if 17 377s and the remaining 465s offered greater availability.

Possibly, but one other problem SE have been having is their existing 377/5s have been having reliability problems as well; maybe not as bad as 465/9s, but bad enough that Networker diagrams have regularly come in on relief for some 377 diagrams. A notable candidate for this currently is the 18:28 CST-AFK, which is normally am 8-car 377/5 formation, but seems to be a 6-car Networker formation quite regularly, sometimes multiple times a week, which is of course a capacity (and probably also comfort) reduction. The Maidstone East line has and may still do see this as well.

 

[Stephen42]

I believe 24x 465/9s are still in service. If two go when the last 707s arrive, and then another 17 when 377s come over as speculated, that still leaves 5x 465/9s, unless SE are planning a (likely unpopular) fleet reduction.

The 465s used to be diagrammed by subclass, back in May 2022 there were 84 units in traffic from 97 465/0 & 1. They are currently diagrammed together with 100 units in traffic which would need 16 units in traffic to compensate for the 465/9s going away. The 466s look to be used as little as possible with the focus on Tuesday to Thursday, they can't easily be removed without fleet reductions.

If the final pair of 707s could increase the number of 707s out by 2, then would need 14 units in traffic from the 17 377s which isn't out of the question. If the 377s can interwork with their existing 377s it would reduce the availability requirement for that fleet overall. In an ideal world Southeastern would find maintenance capacity to look after the 377s rather than Southern as that could improve availability further.

 

[XCTurbostar]

701s!.. no in all seriousness it’s likely the 377/1s which have already been ear marked. Isn’t SN still having stock shortages too?

 

[JonathanH]

Isn’t SN still having stock shortages too?

Under the reported plan, the 377s from Southern get backfilled with 387s from GN which are backfilled with 379s. A small uplift in fleet for both GN and Southern with Networkers dropping out the bottom. There is no reported reliability issue on Southern as regards stock vs timetable.

 

[Class15]

Surely they won’t bin the 466s?! Capacity problems incoming if they do.

 

[Mikey C]

Southeastern are going to be replacing some networkers (not all) with some cascaded stock soon. I was told that a very strong hint was made on an internal colleague briefing today.

2 717s, 3 377s, 2 387s, 4 458s, 6 450s, 3 350s, 2 331s, 2 385s, and 4 720s

 

[brad465]

2 717s, 3 377s, 2 387s, 4 458s, 6 450s, 3 350s, 2 331s, 2 385s, and 4 720s

Don't give them ideas

 

[Bald Rick]

2 717s, 3 377s, 2 387s, 4 458s, 6 450s, 3 350s, 2 331s, 2 385s, and 4 720s

… and a partridge in a pear tree.

 

[brad465]

… and a partridge in a pear tree.

"FIVE, GOLDEN HINDS!"

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Possibly, but one other problem SE have been having is their existing 377/5s have been having reliability problems as well; maybe not as bad as 465/9s, but bad enough that Networker diagrams have regularly come in on relief for some 377 diagrams. A notable candidate for this currently is the 18:28 CST-AFK, which is normally am 8-car 377/5 formation, but seems to be a 6-car Networker formation quite regularly, sometimes multiple times a week, which is of course a capacity (and probably also comfort) reduction. The Maidstone East line has and may still do see this as well.

These still get maintained at Selhurst?

 

[wickham]

350s would indeed be a very good idea - they are a good, nice experiance train to travel on. The only problem is that the 350/2s to be released by LNW are NOT dual voltage: Now, if someone were to instruct that LNW release the 350/1s instead........

 

[Doomotron]

350s would indeed be a very good idea - they are a good, nice experiance train to travel on. The only problem is that the 350/2s to be released by LNW are NOT dual voltage: Now, if someone were to instruct that LNW release the 350/1s instead........

I don't think anybody has seriously suggested 350s for Southeastern. Not only are the 350/2s owned by a different ROSCO (part of the reason for their withdrawal), I doubt anybody is willing to convert them to DC. As far as I'm aware, the last time a train was converted from DC to AC or vice versa were the Connex 365s. It's especially unlikely considering other operators (primarily ScotRail) could do better with them.

 

[Wolfie]

350s would indeed be a very good idea - they are a good, nice experiance train to travel on. The only problem is that the 350/2s to be released by LNW are NOT dual voltage: Now, if someone were to instruct that LNW release the 350/1s instead........

Given that the 350/1s have been refurbished and are to a broadly common standard to the 350/3 and 350/4s and the 350/2s haven't and aren't (in particular being 3+2) that suggestion will go down like a bucket of sick with LNW users.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Surely they won’t bin the 466s?! Capacity problems incoming if they do.

The 466s are needed for a 10 car railway so unless all the 10 car diagrams shift to become 376/707s or are reduced to 8 car, some 466s (the better ones) will need to remain.

The current 465/466 situation is very similar to the 4EPB/2EPB withdrawal, both lasted until the last year.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I will doubtless be accused of wishful thinking here, but I honestly genuinely think that Southeastern metro fleet replacement will become both an early and easy victim of post-autumn budget austerity when it inevitably hits the rail industry, got to pay for all those pay rises somehow haven't we
Send them all up to Derby including the ones currently withdrawn as spares donors or to be recommissioned and put back into use. And whilst they're there, they'll get a heavy mechanical overhaul and major internal refurbishment involving full strip out and start again once that's done, do the same with the electrostar fleet starting with the 376 upgrading. What is a very cosmetic refresh at present to new seats, USB charging and perhaps even some air conditioning? Once that's complete they can heavily refurbish and midlife extend the expected lifetime of the 375 and 377 fleets. Doing this keeps Derby going so happy unions and workers and saves an awful lot of money. I suspect that the only rolling stock investment we're going to see outside of hs2 for quite some time. Is the sprinter replacements and then either at the same time or just after the turbos
No doubt the god-awful 170 fleet can be life extended in some way as well
Apologies for slight off topic but simply demonstrating my reasoning for the cutbacks potentially to Southeastern