Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[4BEP]

So long as there’s enough spare currently

Existing Southeastern stock is going to be used for this service, no extra space is available until Chart Leacon is finished (that seems to have gone a little quiet).

I was led to believe this new service was going to be worked entirely by Southeastern (Ashford has seen a huge increase in recruitment). I doubt there are 6 700/0s actually spare without taking them off the 2Cxx KGX - CBG services

The removal of one of the stoppers on the North Kent will free up some 377 / 375s.

 

[brad465]

The removal of one of the stoppers on the North Kent will free up some 377 / 375s.

Do 375/377s operate on the North Kent line (besides engineering work diversions)?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Do 375/377s operate on the North Kent line (besides engineering work diversions)?

I think he means via Longfield.

 

[Chiltern006]

2Kxx stoppers will go in May, releasing 3-6 4 car 377s

 

[Class 466]

2Kxx stoppers will go in May, releasing 3-6 4 car 377s

Slowing down the other Chatham Mainline services in the process for a service that isn’t really going to be all that beneficial. Hardly the service via London Bridge that was once promised!

 

[brad465]

2Kxx stoppers will go in May, releasing 3-6 4 car 377s

Slowing down the other Chatham Mainline services in the process for a service that isn’t really going to be all that beneficial. Hardly the service via London Bridge that was once promised!

Will there still be peak extras running to the Medway Towns that serve all stations from Bromley South to Rochester? Pre-covid and at the moment this was normally only hourly, but increases to 2tph in the peaks, and pre-covid there was a third per hour from BFR-RTR, while one of the hourly VIC stoppers was to/from Sheerness.

 

[BluePenguin]

Slowing down the other Chatham Mainline services in the process for a service that isn’t really going to be all that beneficial. Hardly the service via London Bridge that was once promised!

I think this is going to be the most pointless service ever introduced. It won’t serve anywhere useful and is too slow.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think this is going to be the most pointless service ever introduced. It won’t serve anywhere useful and is too slow.

Agreed. Spent ten years commuting from Maidstone east in the 80's and the service has never got back to anything like the speed it had then with lower powered trains. Best era was when the Cannon St fast service ran with sub 50mins possible with an adventurous driver. I see the BFR services are class 1's even more farcical.

 

[Stephen42]

The first set of SE timetables for May 2022 are now available on Real Time Trains. At Blackfriars the Maidstone services are currently showing as hourly and the 2Kxx Gillingham stoppers are retained. 1Axx are via Herne Hill and 1Fxx via Catford which would explain why the new Maidstone services don't call at Denmark Hill as they can't consistently.

The schedules don't fully match up for diagrams, but across the SE network most passenger services seem in so possibly only a couple of empty stock workings that are missing.

 

[Class 466]

I don't think all of the BFR services are in there yet - theres a 5Fxx ecs from Ashford to Maidstone that currently forms nothing

 

[317 forever]

Trying to answer all points here:

- The 2022 Timetable will see the Maidstone East service (Southeastern replacement for Thameslink) still run even on Sundays; but on Sunday it runs via the Chislehurst loops and Grove Park to London Bridge and then Cannon Street or Charing Cross at bidder discretion. This is every 30 minutes.

- During the Monday to Saturday period, however, it will operate via Catford (which therefore only has to accommodate a fast path every 30 minutes during off-peak, which is perfectly adequate) to Blackfriars.

- The Victoria to Ashford stays at 30-minutely via Herne Hill; albeit fast from Victoria to Bromley South.

- Once Thameslink have sorted themselves out and got the Welwyn to Sevenoaks running, that means Southeastern effectively have free use of the two bay platforms. A half-hourly Maidstone, half-hourly Beckenham additional Metro service and I strongly suspect a half-hourly Blackfriars to Medway are likely. I don’t see the peak Medway extras being from Victoria but I would like to be surprised.

- Victoria to Lewisham will be half-hourly from May 2022, all day. Half-hourly to Hayes and at least Crayford via Sidcup each. So Victoria to Denmark Hill will be very reasonably satisfied. So will Denmark Hill and Peckham to Lewisham.

- I do not suspect the peak services from Victoria / Blackfriars to Medway will stop at anything other than Denmark Hill (maybe Elephant if using Blackfriars); but the Blackfriars to Maidstone I suspect will be Elephant and Denmark Hill all day. Two major reasons: one, the draw on Hospitals and interchange to LO; two, the fact that not-stopping simply adds a few minutes of recovery time and the same passing time at Shortlands as you’ll catch an Orpington / Sevenoaks anyway.

- Hayes will have 6tph at peak. 2tph Victoria, 4tph Charing Cross. All Charing Cross peak services are fast to/from Ladywell. So only half-hourly at Lewisham, which is in my view a huge shame. Same for the Sidcup line. There will be in 2022 no Sidcup terminating services. All 10tph run at least to/from Crayford; and only the 2tph to Victoria run via Lewisham! The 4tph to both Cannon Street and Charing Cross are fast from Hither Green; although it is expected the Cannon Street services will stop at New Cross.

This SouthEastern replacement of the Thameslink service to Maidstone will release some 700s.

With the 1/2 hourly service linking Hayes with Victoria, I wonder whether there will still be a regular service from Hayes to Charing Cross?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

This SouthEastern replacement of the Thameslink service to Maidstone will release some 700s.

With the 1/2 hourly service linking Hayes with Victoria, I wonder whether there will still be a regular service from Hayes to Charing Cross?

I'm not sure when you think Hayes and Victoria is happening or even a thing at all. Its certainly not happening from May 22 or Dec 22.

 

[317 forever]

I'm not sure when you think Hayes and Victoria is happening or even a thing at all. Its certainly not happening from May 22 or Dec 22.

It was mentioned in the post I quoted and was replying to. But fair enough if the service is not happening.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It was mentioned in the post I quoted and was replying to. But fair enough if the service is not happening.

Ah yes, that post was what was probably orginally going to happen, but that was before covid. That timetable change is not happening now, certainly there are no plans for it happening anytime soon in full as that post described.

 

[whoosh]

At last check the still-unused Ashford Thameslink drivers will be TUPEd in and this will be their only work.

I am not sure it will never happen, just as there are options to build more 700s or lengthen the existing 8 cars, but it certainly isn't happening anytime soon.

WGC to Sevenoaks should start in the summer timetable. Plenty of route learning has taken place for months, and I assume that with so few services per day they will have enough drivers ready by May.

At the last check, Welwyn and ASHFORD (curve ball surprise!) Drivers are route learning to be able to introduce the Sevenoaks to Welwyn peak hour services in May 2022.

 

[bramling]

This SouthEastern replacement of the Thameslink service to Maidstone will release some 700s.

With the 1/2 hourly service linking Hayes with Victoria, I wonder whether there will still be a regular service from Hayes to Charing Cross?

SE to Maidstone won’t release any 700s, as the service has never existed as a Thameslink service.

As the 700/0 fleet is already heavily subscribed, any units ordered with this service in mind will be being used elsewhere - the long slow run out to Rainham being one such deployment, Rainham wasn’t planned when the units were ordered.

Before Covid, the entire 700 fleet was heavily utilised. The only realistic way to get more out of it would be to push availability upwards.

 

[jon0844]

At the last check, Welwyn and ASHFORD (curve ball surprise!) Drivers are route learning to be able to introduce the Sevenoaks to Welwyn peak hour services in May 2022.

Indeed. Many 3Yxx services running WGC to KGX. Not sure what the equivalent headcodes are for the route learning 'down south'.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

SE to Maidstone won’t release any 700s, as the service has never existed as a Thameslink service.

As the 700/0 fleet is already heavily subscribed, any units ordered with this service in mind will be being used elsewhere - the long slow run out to Rainham being one such deployment, Rainham wasn’t planned when the units were ordered.

Before Covid, the entire 700 fleet was heavily utilised. The only realistic way to get more out of it would be to push availability upwards.

Did a daytime journey upto CMB and there were plenty of 700's stabled at TBD and HOR when we went past. I believe its only the peak extras to Littlehampton and E.Grinstead that aren't running currently so how many units do they need per day out of the 115 they have got.

 

[bramling]

Did a daytime journey upto CMB and there were plenty of 700's stabled at TBD and HOR when we went past. I believe its only the peak extras to Littlehampton and E.Grinstead that aren't running currently so how many units do they need per day out of the 115 they have got.

The current emergency timetable reduces the unit requirement by some margin.

For example, just looking at the GN side you can knock off three 700/0 for Welwyn-KX peak not running (hasn’t run since Covid), and a further two 700/0 for the current emergency timetable with the Cambridge-KX service being cut back to 1tph north of Royston and a quick turnaround at King’s Cross. This reduces the 700/0 unit requirement from 11 to 6. In terms of 700/1, this is unchanged on the GN side.

I’ve lost track of the situation on the other parts of TL as it doesn’t affect my journeys! I have the diagrams for May 21 somewhere, I’ll see if I can dig them out.

I’d assume the GN 700/0 requirement would return to 11 in May if Welwyn-Sevenoaks happens.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The current emergency timetable reduces the unit requirement by some margin.

For example, just looking at the GN side you can knock off three 700/0 for Welwyn-KX peak not running (hasn’t run since Covid), and a further two 700/0 for the current emergency timetable with the Cambridge-KX service being cut back to 1tph north of Royston and a quick turnaround at King’s Cross. This reduces the 700/0 unit requirement from 11 to 6. In terms of 700/1, this is unchanged on the GN side.

I’ve lost track of the situation on the other parts of TL as it doesn’t affect my journeys! I have the diagrams for May 21 somewhere, I’ll see if I can dig them out.

I’d assume the GN 700/0 requirement would return to 11 in May if Welwyn-Sevenoaks happens.

GTR or in reality us pay Cross London Trains Ltd £182m pa to lease the 700 fleet unfortunately the accounts don't specify what level of availability they need to fulfil to know how many trains they are contracted to put out on a daily basis although clearly covid reductions aren't their issue.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Did a daytime journey upto CMB and there were plenty of 700's stabled at TBD and HOR when we went past. I believe its only the peak extras to Littlehampton and E.Grinstead that aren't running currently so how many units do they need per day out of the 115 they have got.

They're not running the all day Orpington - Kentish Town service either.

 

[4BEP]

I think he means via Longfield.

Thanks for correcting my error. Still not looking like the half hourly service promised from the May though.

 

[Class 466]

One wonders if there’s much point in the service at all, I don’t see it lasting long term!

 

[BluePenguin]

One wonders if there’s much point in the service at all, I don’t see it lasting long term!

There is very very little point. A few people travelling from Bromley South - Blackfriars may use it for a slightly faster journey than the Thameslink service. Otherwise I doubt there will be much custom

Instating a service from Ashord International, Maidstone East to London Bridge would be much more useful and attract far more passengers. Although it would seem that won’t happen anytime soon.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

One wonders if there’s much point in the service at all, I don’t see it lasting long term!

Thats why they are running a naff service for a few months to then say there has been no demand so its being withdrawn

 

[4BEP]

Will there still be peak extras running to the Medway Towns that serve all stations from Bromley South to Rochester? Pre-covid and at the moment this was normally only hourly, but increases to 2tph in the peaks, and pre-covid there was a third per hour from BFR-RTR, while one of the hourly VIC stoppers was to/from Sheerness.

Thats why they are running a naff service for a few months to then say there has been no demand so its being withdrawn

Agree,the half hourly service promised has already gone and the remaing one is irregular and has varying platform allocations at MDE. Bizarrely the off peak up services to Blackfriars will be the fastest Maidstone East to London services. Jorney time has always been the issue with London services from MDE, what is needed is a 3tph service with an hourly fast service to Charing X, or Cannon Street as before 2009 when LBG was less than 50 minutes and Charing X / Cannon Street was just over. I wonder if the conductors depot for MDE is going ahead given the reduction inthe promised service?

 

[Class 466]

Pretty much all of the Blackfriars services for May 22 have gone, with that 'express' (1A83 I think it was) service from Ashford diverted back into Victoria as per the current timetable as 2A22.

 

[brad465]

Pretty much all of the Blackfriars services for May 22 have gone, with that 'express' (1A83 I think it was) service from Ashford diverted back into Victoria as per the current timetable as 2A22.

Finally seen the light then. I notice the 1tp3h trial service is still in place for now.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Finally seen the light then. I notice the 1tp3h trial service is still in place for now.

it and rather randomly the 17.42 Orpington to Luton Service are showing as the only passanger services between Bromley South and Blackfriars from May onwards...

BMS South Calling at BFR 19 May 22

 

[Class 466]

it and rather randomly the 17.42 Orpington to Luton Service are showing as the only passanger services between Bromley South and Blackfriars from May onwards...

BMS South Calling at BFR 19 May 22

GTRs timetable hasn’t been uploaded yet, this time next week that should look more populated.