SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[bramling]

Why would you hope for that?

I suspect many people would prefer the Networkers to get a proper refurbishment *now*, rather than wait quite a few years for new trains and the Networkers be allowed to properly fall apart in the meantime.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect many people would prefer the Networkers to get a proper refurbishment *now*, rather than wait quite a few years for new trains and the Networkers be allowed to properly fall apart in the meantime.

A transformational and meaningful refurbishment, which I think is what the 'proper' refurbishment implies is very unlikely though. It would take time to design and plan, and the payback period is probably too short, so it wouldn't be available *now*. I wonder how long was the SWR 455 refurbishment from concept to rebuild to completion.

I dont really see how the bulkheads could be set back and the seats reorganised given the window design. At least with the SWT 455s, the door pockets provided a sensible position to move the bulkheads back, but I imagine there was less hidden under the seats constraining the internal layout.

 

[bramling]

A transformational and meaningful refurbishment, which I think is what the 'proper' refurbishment implies is very unlikely though. It would take time to design and plan, and the payback period is probably too short, so it wouldn't be available *now*. I wonder how long was the SWR 455 refurbishment from concept to rebuild to completion.

I dont really see how the bulkheads could be set back and the seats reorganised given the window design. At least with the SWT 455s, the door pockets provided a sensible position to move the bulkheads back, but I imagine there was less hidden under the seats constraining the internal layout.

Just properly restoring them to the state they were in at the last refresh would be adequate. The issue isn’t so much the design, but the very poor state they’ve been allowed to get to.

 

[JonathanH]

Just properly restoring them to the state they were in at the last refresh would be adequate. The issue isn’t so much the design, but the very poor state they’ve been allowed to get to.

That isn't a 'proper refurbishment' though.

 

[gmaguire]

That isn't a 'proper refurbishment' though.

A full interior repaint, new lights, new seat moquette and new floor would be fine. The exterior paint is still in decent condition, it's just very dirty. Though I hate the black window band that tries to look like bonded glazing, I'd love to see that go.

The 315s were given that sort of refurb when TfL took over their lines, and that was only about 7 years ago.

 

[bramling]

A full interior repaint, new lights, new seat moquette and new floor would be fine. The exterior paint is still in decent condition, it's just very dirty. Though I hate the black window band that tries to look like bonded glazing, I'd love to see that go.

That’s the kind of thing I was alluding to. Get them into a decent state, then keep them clean and with minor issues attended to before they mount up.

The 365s were generally kept fine, so no reason why same couldn’t apply to the 465s, notwithstanding their use in rougher areas.

 

[WizCastro197]

When will we know if a supplier has answered such bids?

 

[Electrostarred]

I really want to see a rejigging of Networkers, especially seating accomodation and livery, in fact, why not new CIS?

 

[Doomotron]

Well this is some baseless speculation isn't it... Coming up with a wishlist for a refurbishment that is almost certainly not going to happen during a financial crisis and when a replacement fleet will be on the way.

 

[gmaguire]

Well this is some baseless speculation isn't it... Coming up with a wishlist for a refurbishment that is almost certainly not going to happen during a financial crisis and when a replacement fleet will be on the way.

How is it baseless speculation.

 

[Doomotron]

How is it baseless speculation.

Please tell me where the proof is that the Networkers will get a refurbishment. Then, tell me where the proof is that they'll have changes to seating layout, a new PIS, or whatever else has been suggested in this thread. Until then, it is baseless speculation, which would be far better off here. So far there is no hint that there will be a refurbishment, let alone one that will be anything more than a light refresh, especially when the replacement for the fleet and possibly others too is due before the end of the decade.

 

[gmaguire]

Please tell me where the proof is that the Networkers will get a refurbishment. Then, tell me where the proof is that they'll have changes to seating layout, a new PIS, or whatever else has been suggested in this thread. Until then, it is baseless speculation, which would be far better off here. So far there is no hint that there will be a refurbishment, let alone one that will be anything more than a light refresh, especially when the replacement for the fleet and possibly others too is due before the end of the decade.

They were just saying they would like to see it happen.

 

[Doomotron]

They were just saying they would like to see it happen.

I know... Which makes it baseless speculation.

 

[bramling]

I know... Which makes it baseless speculation.

Speculation is suggesting what’s going to happen. Expressing a preference for what *should* happen isn’t speculation.

No one knows what is going to happen, probably including Southeastern at this point.

What we *can* reasonably say is that the Networkers are only going to sink into a worse state if nothing is done to them, new trains in the pipeline or otherwise, hence why it’s a reasonable suggestion that some kind of refurbishment is really needed now.

 

[Doomotron]

What we *can* reasonably say is that the Networkers are only going to sink into a worse state if nothing is done to them, new trains in the pipeline or otherwise, hence why it’s a reasonable suggestion that some kind of refurbishment is really needed now.

There is no possible way the DfT will greenlight a refurbishment for a large fleet after the tender for its replacement has already closed, during a financial crisis when all operators are being squeezed tight. It could have happened if there was a change of franchise such as with SWR and the country was richer but this isn't the case.

 

[bramling]

There is no possible way the DfT will greenlight a refurbishment for a large fleet after the tender for its replacement has already closed, during a financial crisis when all operators are being squeezed tight. It could have happened if there was a change of franchise such as with SWR and the country was richer but this isn't the case.

We don’t know at this stage whether the Networkers are going to be replaced. The feeling seems to be that this tender is more of a testing the water exercise.

 

[43066]

There is no possible way the DfT will greenlight a refurbishment for a large fleet after the tender for its replacement has already closed, during a financial crisis when all operators are being squeezed tight.

Is that right?

We will find out presently, won’t we…

 

[Doomotron]

We don’t know at this stage whether the Networkers are going to be replaced. The feeling seems to be that this tender is more of a testing the water exercise.

It won't be a testing the waters exercise unless some really weird things happen. Some Networkers have already been permanently withdrawn (or 'cold storage' but the 508s went into cold storage and look what happened there...), the fleet was worn down two decades ago and is likely in a beyond-repair state, with none of the fleet being suitable for either metro or outer suburban workings. All Southeastern have been doing is the bare minimum to keep them going. Unless 'the feeling' has hard evidence that it's not happening then this is the start of the (20 years too late) Networker replacement.

Is that right?

We will find out presently, won’t we…

Please don't tell me you seriously believe that the Networkers are going to get a refurbishment...

 

[brad465]

It won't be a testing the waters exercise unless some really weird things happen. Some Networkers have already been permanently withdrawn (or 'cold storage' but the 508s went into cold storage and look what happened there...), the fleet was worn down two decades ago and is likely in a beyond-repair state, with none of the fleet being suitable for either metro or outer suburban workings. All Southeastern have been doing is the bare minimum to keep them going. Unless 'the feeling' has hard evidence that it's not happening then this is the start of the (20 years too late) Networker replacement.

Please don't tell me you seriously believe that the Networkers are going to get a refurbishment...

While I can see much of what you're saying happening, you do live up to your username

 

[Doomotron]

While I can see much of what you're saying happening, you do live up to your username

Hey, my counsellor can afford steak for a reason.

 

[Mikey C]

I think the point of our "speculation" is that a comprehensive refurbishment of the Networkers would mean that new trains wouldn't be needed for another decade, thus saving money.

In the current financial climate, I'd be amazed if this wasn't under consideration.

It won't be a testing the waters exercise unless some really weird things happen. Some Networkers have already been permanently withdrawn (or 'cold storage' but the 508s went into cold storage and look what happened there...), the fleet was worn down two decades ago and is likely in a beyond-repair state, with none of the fleet being suitable for either metro or outer suburban workings. All Southeastern have been doing is the bare minimum to keep them going. Unless 'the feeling' has hard evidence that it's not happening then this is the start of the (20 years too late) Networker replacement.

Please don't tell me you seriously believe that the Networkers are going to get a refurbishment...

The Networkers are only just coming up to 30 years old as it is, you make it sound like they're ancient, when all the Sprinters and Network Turbos are older.

 

[Stephen42]

I think the point of our "speculation" is that a comprehensive refurbishment of the Networkers would mean that new trains wouldn't be needed for another decade, thus saving money.

In the current financial climate, I'd be amazed if this wasn't under consideration.

There were three parallel opportunities; 1) Supplier for new trains, 2) A financing deal for the new trains and 3) Leasing of existing trains. All in the objective have a paragraph similar to this which makes clear it's all about saving money:

The overall objective of this procurement is cost reduction and cost avoidance, through securing the best medium and long-term value fleet solution for the benefit of taxpayers, the Department for Transport, Southeastern and ultimately, Southeastern's customers. We believe that this objective can be secured by procuring new trains to replace a significant quantity of Southeastern's ageing fleet and therefore avoiding the escalating maintenance, repair and leasing costs

The last bit in particular suggests that a comprehensive refurbishment of the Networkers may not be cost effective.

In my view this is a comprehensive review of Southeastern's metro rolling stock to identify the best value for money option rather than testing the waters. While unlikely all the tenders will be fulfilled, a list of options and the underlying business case will be submitted to the decision makers. One of those would be continuing with the Networkers as is/with refurbishment and potentially even an option dropping down to the ones in best condition. The staff time/cost for the procurement will be significant so I'd be surprised if someone hadn't come up with ballpark pricing for various options to demonstrate that the procurement process would be worth doing already.

The Networkers are only just coming up to 30 years old as it is, you make it sound like they're ancient, when all the Sprinters and Network Turbos are older.

All the opportunities are for October 2027 when they'd be 35 years old, with the cost of the process and lead time they'd probably need to last 40 years plus for continuing to be worthwhile. It's possible depending what the other options come out as, maybe with the Networkers in best condition being retained for particular routes if they can avoid paying leasing costs for the ones not retained.

 

[CFRAIL]

I personally don't see a refurbishment on the cards for them. The units are getting progressively more expensive to maintain and parts harder and harder to source.

 

[Mikey C]

I personally don't see a refurbishment on the cards for them. The units are getting progressively more expensive to maintain and parts harder and harder to source.

But nobody is proposing removing the 165s and 166s, which have lots in common with the BREL Networkers?

 

[Energy]

But nobody is proposing removing the 165s and 166s, which have lots in common with the BREL Networkers?

Angel Trains are using 3D printing on some parts like some interior fittings to deal with lack of spare parts. Bits for the engines on 165/166s and for the original traction system on the 465/466s are going to be very different...

 

[brad465]

I personally don't see a refurbishment on the cards for them. The units are getting progressively more expensive to maintain and parts harder and harder to source.

You'd think that with a fleet as large as the 190x 465 and 466s combined that relevant parts could still be manufactured, on the principle of safety in numbers. I can see a bespoke fleet (i.e. not using parts that are common across rail fleets) that is not very large overall becoming an issue over time, but not for any fleet numbering over 50-100+ units.

 

[D365]

You'd think that with a fleet as large as the 190x 465 and 466s combined that relevant parts could still be manufactured, on the principle of safety in numbers.

As far as I understand, the 3D printing is primarily for the replacement of interior parts, which aren't needed in massive quantities.

 

[Roast Veg]

You'd think that with a fleet as large as the 190x 465 and 466s combined that relevant parts could still be manufactured, on the principle of safety in numbers. I can see a bespoke fleet (i.e. not using parts that are common across rail fleets) that is not very large overall becoming an issue over time, but not for any fleet numbering over 50-100+ units.

Rather than being a part specific issue, the technologies used in the manufacturing of the parts are no longer economical.

 

[gmaguire]

Rather than being a part specific issue, the technologies used in the manufacturing of the parts are no longer economical.

I still think it would have been sensible to salvage any useful parts from the 365s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2022 ==

The disruption caused by the snow last week, along with a power supply failure on the Sidcup line this evening, will surely strengthen the case for new trains with backup battery power.

 

[4BEP]

I would say it also depends on how much Siemens really want it. Sadly, despite the recent opinion (and poll on here) they’ve found themselves rather cast out of a lot of fleet replacements and orders recently (GA, SW, LNWR, HS2) with only the LUL Piccadilly Line contract to keep them going for now. At least Goole will need work in the future, so pending any further orders from TfL, that could sway things for them.

Siemens still list Desiro as a current product in several forms including the new Desiro Verve, a Regional / Intercity version with options up to 200 kmh, remember the reqest for expressions of interest suggests that either metro or mainline fleets could be replaced. Also Siemens has a new S-Bahn product, Mireo, which would fit the metro option.