SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[dorsetdesiro]

Do the 2 car 466s still run on the Bromley North line? As it is an isolated branch line, are there plans for new or cascaded dedicated stock as part of the replacement programme? Maybe 484s or converted old stock as temporary solution?

If not, then if say new 707s or 701s are the new SE metro stock then will these run on the BN line or will some old Networkers be kept running until the line's future is decided to become a tram line, guided busway, OG/UG/DLR extension or even full closure in favour for a shared path?

Cheers for any possible answers

 

[supervc-10]

The 777s have full level boarding don't they? They have the same 75mph top speed as the Networkers, and are very much designed for high capacity operations. The door layout/coach lengths etc probably wouldn't fit for SE, but they do show that you can have a metro train with level boarding. The other option is to have a single car in each unit with a dropped floor to have a specific vehicle containing the disabled accessible toilet and the passenger accomodation.

I agree that a 4-car and 6-car mix could be a good idea.

 

[43066]

Do the 2 car 466s still run on the Bromley North line?

No. Single 465s now due to 466s not having a universal toilet.

As it is an isolated branch line, are there plans for new or cascaded dedicated stock as part of the replacement programme? Maybe 484s as temporary solution?

Not that I’ve heard of.

If not, then if say new 707s or 701s are the new SE metro stock then will these run on the BN line or will some old Networkers be kept running until the line's future is decided to become a tram line, guided busway, OG/UG/DLR extension or even full closure in favour for a shared path?

Has closure/conversion to a busway ever been seriously suggested? More than likely it’ll continue as now with a single unit of new stock.

 

[Class 466]

Just one diagram each weekday to Ashford and not even that is rostered this week. The Mid Kent and Chatham line services are being severely reduced from next month so the number of 465/9s required will be further reduced. That said my reading of the expressions of interest is that either metro or mainline stock could be replaced, goodness knows why but remember SE is now run by the DfT so anything is possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==


Sorry, just noticed the the 465/9 diagram is back in today, yesterday it was on a Maidstone / Blackfriars diagram. There is also a 7 car 375 pair on the Vic - Maidstone - Ramsgate today, like the Blackfriars service the Ramsgate service is being dropped next month leaving 1tph between AFK - MDE snd VIC and an hourly service from MDE to CHX.

There's currently two 465 diagrams on the MDE line on weekdays because of a shortage of 375s. The 7 car is also a normal diagram.

 

[brad465]

There's currently two 465 diagrams on the MDE line on weekdays because of a shortage of 375s. The 7 car is also a normal diagram.

When I heard this yesterday I thought it was a 377 shortage, not that there's much difference on that route between the 2 Electrostar classes?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

Just one diagram each weekday to Ashford and not even that is rostered this week. The Mid Kent and Chatham line services are being severely reduced from next month so the number of 465/9s required will be further reduced. That said my reading of the expressions of interest is that either metro or mainline stock could be replaced, goodness knows why but remember SE is now run by the DfT so anything is possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==


Sorry, just noticed the the 465/9 diagram is back in today, yesterday it was on a Maidstone / Blackfriars diagram. There is also a 7 car 375 pair on the Vic - Maidstone - Ramsgate today, like the Blackfriars service the Ramsgate service is being dropped next month leaving 1tph between AFK - MDE snd VIC and an hourly service from MDE to CHX.

I believe the extra diagram also does a morning AFK-VIC and back, then takes over Blackfriars from lunchtime, and finishes with the BFR-AFK in the evening peak.

 

[Class 466]

When I heard this yesterday I thought it was a 377 shortage, not that there's much difference on that route between the 2 Electrostar classes?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==


I believe the extra diagram also does a morning AFK-VIC and back, then takes over Blackfriars from lunchtime, and finishes with the BFR-AFK in the evening peak.

The 377s that the second 465 diagram replaced are on 2W95 0735 AFK - CST & 2R93 1802 CST - AFK instead of 375s. Remember 377s and 375s are entirely separate fleets at SE with their own set diagrams.

 

[WizCastro197]

Other than on Tun Wells and Gillingham services 465/9s are rare on Ashford and mainline services, likely become more rare when the heavily teduces setvices ststrt on 12 Dec.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==


HS1 is excluded from the requirement.

I know that it was excluded This was established a long time ago?

There is already a thread on the 465s on Ashford services.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Tbf ive seen 465/9s all around the network like the hayes line for example

 

[JonathanH]

Tbf ive seen 465/9s all around the network like the hayes line for example

Yes, the arrival of the 377/5s allowed some of them to be used on Metro workings.

 

[43066]

Tbf ive seen 465/9s all around the network like the hayes line for example

When the 377s were brought over from GTR quite a few 465/9s were released for metro diagrams.

 

[bramling]

The reason mainline is mentioned in this is because of the work 465/9s do to Tunbridge Wells, Ashford & Gillingham/Faversham/Dover. They wouldn't replace 375s.

In crayon land, it would make some sense to move a few first-generation Electrostars over from Southern to cover the 465/9 work, backfill these with 387s from GN, and in turn backfill those with the 379s. It still doesn’t solve the headache of the three separate metro fleets though.

 

[lumitumey12345]

The /9s are pretty sluggish at times as well so it would make sense them being the first to go

 

[Class 466]

The /9s are pretty sluggish at times as well so it would make sense them being the first to go

It’s also well documented in another thread that the Met Cam units have had a number of bodyshell issues this year.

From December all the TBW 10 cars are formed 465/9 + 465 + 466 instead of 465/9 + 465/9 + 466. With the removal of first class, they’ll be doing even more metro work than currently.

If I were in charge, I’d make a homogeneous metro fleet out of more 707s and fully refurb the 376s to replace 465/9s on TBW & Chatham Mainline work.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The /9s are pretty sluggish at times as well so it would make sense them being the first to go

Oh yes, definitely in wet weather, they seem more than pacey enough in the dry to me (using GPS)

 

[43066]

The /9s are pretty sluggish at times as well so it would make sense them being the first to go

Oh yes, definitely in wet weather, they seem more than pacey enough in the dry to me (using GPS)

Most people who’ve driven them would rank /2s and /9s as the quickest of the bunch!

 

[hwl]

The 777s have full level boarding don't they? They have the same 75mph top speed as the Networkers, and are very much designed for high capacity operations. The door layout/coach lengths etc probably wouldn't fit for SE, but they do show that you can have a metro train with level boarding. The other option is to have a single car in each unit with a dropped floor to have a specific vehicle containing the disabled accessible toilet and the passenger accomodation.

The other option is to use angled gap fillers ramps mounted under the floor which would be slightly more complicated than the Masats units on the Stadler but that really upsets the Stadler fan club as you could have automated boarding ramps, conventional floor levels and be far cheaper than Stadler.

Split floor level units (which the stadlers are) waste a lot of floor space overall so you can carry fewer passengers per unit length of train. So far where Stadler have won orders they have been able to address capacity issues by lenghtening trains (e.g. 745 and 755s on Anglia and 777 on Merseyrail) but this isn't an option on SE.

The Anglia loading gauge is fairly generous which helps with wide car widths while having Jacobs bogies. The clearance on several key bits on the SE network e.g. into Cannon Street effectively mean you have to stick to traditional design and 20mcar lengths and 14.17m bogie centres which would mean the intermediate Stadler vehicles being 1.05m shorter than on 745/755. This would mean a 12 car 465 being replaced by a 16 car Stadler unit with 2 end cars and 14 intermediate cars (and still be several metres shorter) with alot less floor space overall.

 

[Trainbike46]

The other option is to use angled gap fillers ramps mounted under the floor which would be slightly more complicated than the Masats units on the Stadler but that really upsets the Stadler fan club as you could have automated boarding ramps, conventional floor levels and be far cheaper than Stadler.

Has anyone actually built that? To be honest, as someone who thinks the 755s and 745 are amazing trains, I don't particularly care how level boarding is achieved, as long as it's there and it works. I'd be very happy to see more designs from more manufacturers incorporate level boarding.

Split floor level units (which the stadlers are) waste a lot of floor space overall so you can carry fewer passengers per unit length of train. So far where Stadler have won orders they have been able to address capacity issues by lenghtening trains (e.g. 745 and 755s on Anglia and 777 on Merseyrail) but this isn't an option on SE.

Yet trains following this exact design (manufactured by stadler, siemens and bombardier) get used on crush-loaded metro-style stock in the Netherlands, so clearly it's not as much as an issue as some here have implied. you can still have pretty wide car connections with higher floors near the car ends.

Which isn't to say that a different automatic ramp design might not be better. I guess we'll have to see what shows up in the tender

The Anglia loading gauge is fairly generous which helps with wide car widths while having Jacobs bogies. The clearance on several key bits on the SE network e.g. into Cannon Street effectively mean you have to stick to traditional design and 20mcar lengths and 14.17m bogie centres which would mean the intermediate Stadler vehicles being 1.05m shorter than on 745/755. This would mean a 12 car 465 being replaced by a 16 car Stadler unit with 2 end cars and 14 intermediate cars (and still be several metres shorter) with alot less floor space overall.

In that case you might have to use a design without Jakobs bogies for SE

 

[SolomonSouth]

It’s also well documented in another thread that the Met Cam units have had a number of bodyshell issues this year.

- this creaking is probably bodyshell issues

 

[SolomonSouth]

Most people who’ve driven them would rank /2s and /9s as the quickest of the bunch!

Quicker than BRELS/376s for sure. Maybe similar/slightly faster than 707. But the adhesion and brakes pale in comparison.

 

[hwl]

In that case you might have to use a design without Jakobs bogies for SE

Which then means you have the internal step in floor level adjacent to the doors so you can't have large vestibule standing areas around the doors and leaves you just 6.6metres gap with low floor level between the doors. One of the ways Stadler get round this at Anglia etc is just one door per side which won't cut it at SE.

Angled gap fillers mounted underfloor were a compulsory part of the HS2 tender specification (along with internal floor heights 10cm higher than on SE). This means every manufacturer likely to supply trains in the UK apart from Stadler has a solution already that doesn't involve dual level floors. Alstom's (ex Bombardier) new units for Sweden that will be introduced shortly will have high floors and automated ramps for even lower than UK platform heights using their solution that will also be used for HS2.

 

[brad465]

Oh yes, definitely in wet weather, they seem more than pacey enough in the dry to me (using GPS)

Everything accelerates slower in the wet, it's just 465s have very noticeable wheelslip protection.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Not sure if I sound like a pillock or not but from what I have heard the Met Cam bodyshells were built and shipped overseas and the creaking is sea water in the bodyshells

 

[43066]

Quicker than BRELS/376s for sure. Maybe similar/slightly faster than 707. But the adhesion and brakes pale in comparison.

Rubbish brakes and an awful power controller that it was easy to knock into the wrong place from memory….

There’s nothing like a train that goes well and stops badly to put hairs on your chest.

- this creaking is probably bodyshell issues

Bogie movement? They’ve sounded like that for ages. Quite possibly since they were new.

Not sure if I sound like a pillock or not but from what I have heard the Met Cam bodyshells were built and shipped overseas and the creaking is sea water in the bodyshells

Not at all. I’ve heard that one too.

You can certainly hear water sloshing around in some of them during braking and accelerating. Whether this is truly sealed-in-sea-water from when they were delivered, rather than rainwater that has leaked in since, is another question. I’d hope it was the latter, but you never know…

 

[lumitumey12345]

Either way the /9s need a heavy refurb as they aren't in the greatest condition but that's probably not going to happen due to the replacement tender, unless they retain some 465s for peak hour services or something along those lines, if not then I doubt they'll survive into 2024

 

[SolomonSouth]

Either way the /9s need a heavy refurb as they aren't in the greatest condition but that's probably not going to happen due to the replacement tender, unless they retain some 465s for peak hour services or something along those lines, if not then I doubt they'll survive into 2024

The BRELS need it sooner - at least the /9s had one, even if it was back in 2005

 

[Rail.Fan]

If we’re honest it’s too late for refurbishment the units are aging rapidly now because of neglect and need to go.

With so many new trains in recent years it’s only made it more obvious.

I feel like the trains are only part of the issue with multiple stations needing attention as well. This is what happens when a whole region of the rail network has effectively been left to fend for itself since the 90s.

 

[Mikey C]

Plus there are Met Camm 465/2s and 466s which didn't benefit from the 465/9 work

 

[JonathanH]

With so many new trains in recent years it’s only made it more obvious.

What has it made more obvious? It is just a replacement cycle. Just because another route has new trains, it doesn't bring forward the obsolescence of trains elsewhere.

 

[ScotGG]

Internally the /9s are by far the best for passengers after their 2005 revamp even excluding the first class. Brighter colours and less filthy. The rest are pretty awful inside - though underneath should be much better.

Does anyone believe all the 465/466s will be replaced in 2027 given the balls up made of most other fleets? Could they still be around in 2030 or make their 40th birthday?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2022 ==

What has it made more obvious? It is just a replacement cycle. Just because another route has new trains, it doesn't bring forward the obsolescence of trains elsewhere.

Perhaps they mean as other fleets are used more by Se passengers (Crossrail, Thameslink and even DLR where 30 year old stock is far better inside in terms of basic cleanliness) the starkly neglected feel of much of SE Metro is very clear to see.

If SE want to attract passengers and on a wider level make public transport a viable alternative to the car in congested areas, it matters.

 

[lumitumey12345]

The new trains will obviously have to be phased in slowly so my guess is that they will survive into 2028 and maybe 2029 if im being ambitious.