SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[Snow1964]

Also the Siemens order book is empty besides the Picadilly line order so I would say their high quality stock would work well with the 707s they have already. Hitachi's order book is full with Avanti and EMR's orders and Alstom and Hitachi are also building the HS2 stock in a few years time.

Didn’t Siemens get an order for 43 Velaro trains few months ago, and multiple orders for Vectron locomotives, so order book not empty.

You also can’t rule out joint orders, I understand Berlin S8 line is currently getting new trains from Siemens and Stadler

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==

Ehh, not necessarily. In the case of Class 700 units, British content included:

• CCTV and DOO monitoring systems: Petards, Gateshead;
• Pantograph and shoegear: Brecknell Willis, Chard;
• Flooring: Altro, Letchworth Garden City;
• Exterior lighting: BMAC, Audenshaw;
• GSM-R system: Siemens, Poole;
• Drivers desk and instruments, equipment cubicles, and cable harnesses (both within and between vehicles): Siemens, Hebburn;
• and as suggested, AWS/TPWS systems, DVD footswitch, DRA switch, and power switchover controller: Unipart, Doncaster.

Obviously though yes bodyshells are by far and away the largest single manufacturing task.

I think the bodyshells are not made at Derby, the aluminium planks are made elsewhere and just welded and assembled at Derby.

But where they are made, and where they are fitted is possibly confusing the issue, unless trying to analyse by value

 

[D365]

It's called the class 777 and is being introduced on Merseyrail and the near identical 555 on the Tyne and Wear metro.

No they're not...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==

I think the bodyshells are not made at Derby, the aluminium planks are made elsewhere and just welded and assembled at Derby.

The body panels aren't made in Derby, but if I recall correctly, they're made not far from Derby.

 

[RailWonderer]

No they're not...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==


The body panels aren't made in Derby, but if I recall correctly, they're made not far from Derby.

Looks like they’re not. The 555s have a different body shell and no transverse seating. The identical colour scheme and front cab ends had me fooled.

 

[Recessio]

interiors suitable for metro & mainline operation

I'm assuming by the inclusion of "mainline" this will mean 2+2, probably something similar to 700/717?

 

[XAM2175]

It's called the class 777 and is being introduced on Merseyrail and the near identical 555 on the Tyne and Wear metro.

No they're not...

Looks like they’re not. The 555s have a different body shell and no transverse seating. The identical colour scheme and front cab ends had me fooled.

For clarity, the 777s and 555s are both built on Stadler's METRO platform and share a number of components and technologies (traction system, etc etc). Their actual bodyshells and fitout are obviously quite different.

I'd also suggest that the METRO platform wouldn't be most suitable for the "metro and mainline" use for which SE are asking, but there's no reason Stadler couldn't bid a FLIRT derivative.

Incidentally, that same "metro and mainline" specification is the same thing that makes me think Hitachi could well simply respond with an AT200 variant.

 

[Snow1964]

Incidentally, that same "metro and mainline" specification is the same thing that makes me think Hitachi could well simply respond with an AT200 variant.

Scotrail class 385 are basically an AT200 variant

Would have thought a version with shorter bodies, and 750v dc instead of 25kv ac could easily be offered

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For clarity, the 777s and 555s are both built on Stadler's METRO platform and share a number of components and technologies (traction system, etc etc). Their actual bodyshells and fitout are obviously quite different.

I'd also suggest that the METRO platform wouldn't be most suitable for the "metro and mainline" use for which SE are asking, but there's no reason Stadler couldn't bid a FLIRT derivative.

Incidentally, that same "metro and mainline" specification is the same thing that makes me think Hitachi could well simply respond with an AT200 variant.

Yes, although I can't see a 385 coping well with the London Bridge evening rush hour with the layout the ScotRail ones have.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, although I can't see a 385 coping well with the London Bridge evening rush hour with the layout the ScotRail ones have.

Why not?
Doesn't have to be the same specification, can have bigger vestibules with more standing space.

Fundamentally what is the difference between the the 376 and 375? It's just the specification of the interior

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why not?
Doesn't have to be the same specification, can have bigger vestibules with more standing space.

Fundamentally what is the difference between the the 376 and 375? It's just the specification of the interior

I just personally think the 385s seem rather cluttered and narrow, although if you took the tables and armrests out they’d have more room.

 

[XAM2175]

Scotrail class 385 are basically an AT200 variant

Yes, that's my exact point. I was responding to the poster who seemed to think that Hitachi had nothing to offer because the AT100 is unproven.

 

[Energy]

Scotrail class 385 are basically an AT200 variant

Would have thought a version with shorter bodies, and 750v dc instead of 25kv ac could easily be offered

If this is true Hitachi are the current favourite for GWR non 387 & IET & Night Riviera replacement then I doubt they have the capacity to do both GWR and Southeastern.

 

[D365]

Yes, although I can't see a 385 coping well with the London Bridge evening rush hour with the layout the ScotRail ones have.

"AT200 variant". Not a Class 385.

 

[cactustwirly]

If this is true Hitachi are the current favourite for GWR non 387 & IET & Night Riviera replacement then I doubt they have the capacity to do both GWR and Southeastern.

Who said anything about GWR?

 

[Energy]

Who said anything about GWR?

Forgot the hyperlink

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"AT200 variant". Not a Class 385.

Yes I read it correctly, I’m just referring to the current AT200 variant used in the UK for comparison.

 

[D365]

Yes I read it correctly, I’m just referring to the current AT200 variant used in the UK for comparison.

An AT200 for Southeastern would have a completely different specification. Look at all the different Alstom and CAF variants that currently exist.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It'd make sense for the 376s to go to Southern but only if the add-on element of this future order was taken up, as without it Southeastern would see a reduction in stock.

That is fine now. By 2027? And then in the 2030s? Unlikely to work. SE London is still projected to be one of the areas with highest population growth in the entire country.

Any covid drop - if it ever happened - in overall population now appears to have gone and its rising again.

The Liz line only really helps one of the Metro lines.

With the growth around the SE London/North Kent areas the Liz line will soon be at capacity itself very very quickly.

 

[JonathanH]

With the growth around the SE London/North Kent areas the Liz line will soon be at capacity itself very very quickly.

The official capacity is 1500 people per train. Is it really going to be at that level?

 

[theageofthetra]

Also Southeastern still haven't solved their chronic stabling capacity shortage.

Which makes me wonder if the battery option is to allow a few extra stabling sidings to be built without the cost and safety issues surrounding 3rd rail installation. Being able to have far more sidings where fitters, cleaners etc can work in safety with the power off will be a huge benefit in 3rd rail land.

 

[theageofthetra]

I'm assuming by the inclusion of "mainline" this will mean 2+2, probably something similar to 700/717?

I take this to mean Tunbridge Wells terminators and other longer distance services (where a guard is only used for platform duties at a limited number of stations) will go DOO. In cab monitors will replace the guards role. at say Hildenborough and High Brooms.

I feel this is all part of a deal to reduce costs.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The official capacity is 1500 people per train. Is it really going to be at that level?

Haves you seen the homes and towers being built in those neck of the woods? I would say yes it will be.

 

[RichJF]

We have to accept that within the M25 there is going to be pockets of population growth and density in the next 10-15 years that will compare with somewhere like Singapore. Not everywhere I admit; but where it is you have to anticipate and pre-empt what is going to happen.

It won't be long before 1500 passengers per train won't be enough either!

 

[WizCastro197]

The official capacity is 1500 people per train. Is it really going to be at that level?

No, not any time soon. Only a quarter of Londoners have used it so far and it has been open for some months.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No, not any time soon. Only a quarter of Londoners have used it so far and it has been open for some months.

The entire line has now been connected up now though so I’m sure it’s usage will rise.

 

[Trainbike46]

honestly, siemens desiro cities are highly likely. not too sure about the aventras after the 701 situation. could stadler METRO be an option?

Only if there is a UK version ready, which I doubt there is.

the 777s are Stadler METRO, so a UK version already exists. And depending on the exact needs, a stadler FLIRT UK could be (made) suitable too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2022 ==

For the existing stock option, is there any chance this could mean a new home for the 350s? With necessary adaptations, that is

 

[4BEP]

Is there any way by which they could be built in Goole?

I guess it should be recognised that even trains built in Derby involve some work being done abroad and trains built abroad include UK manufactured components. Is there any clue to the percentage value of UK manufacturing of the different options?

Had Siemens won the HS2 roling stock bid they would have been building TFL deep tube stock and the HS2 stock at the same time so building a fleet of Desiros instead should not be a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2022 ==

Is there any way by which they could be built in Goole?

I guess it should be recognised that even trains built in Derby involve some work being done abroad and trains built abroad include UK manufactured components. Is there any clue to the percentage value of UK manufacturing of the different options?

Had Siemens won the HS2 roling stock bid they would have been building TFL deep tube stock and the HS2 stock at the same time so building a fleet of Desiros instesd should not be a problem.

No they're not...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==


The body panels aren't made in Derby, but if I recall correctly, they're made not far from Derby.

I thought the body panel were made in Belgium.

 

[jackot]

Had Siemens won the HS2 roling stock bid they would have been building TFL deep tube stock and the HS2 stock at the same time so building a fleet of Desiros instead should not be a problem.

Yes, I would think they would have the capacity too. I also doubt it would be a huge problem for them to restart manufacturing of the Desiro City; they stopped building the 350 for 4 years between the /2 and /4 IIRC, and were happy to bring it back for only a few orders - so I think we can assume they would be willing to rebuild a revised Desiro City again for a large order as would be seen here. I think they would be hesitant to order Aventras (especially if they are looking for a heavily customised design like SWR did) for obvious reasons, and CAF/Hitachi don't have perfect track records either (not to say Siemens are perfect either). I think that Stadler would be more inclined to build a FLIRT-based train as supposed to one on their Metro platform if they were to be chosen.

 

[43066]

An even more interesting question is that DfT must have approved this. To do so there must have been a compelling financial reason. Now what is that? Lease costs ? Upcoming maintenance? Performance benefit? Something else?

Not quite sure whether this was a rhetorical question and the “something else” should be blinding obvious (it reads as if it is, but I might be overthinking it! If so apologies) but logically it seems it has to be increasing maintenance costs? In the case of SE this would include eliminating platform mounted DOO monitors, which must be a significant expense given the numbers required.

Networkers are predominately DOO already so this order is unlikely to be the manifestation of a master plan to downgrade or get rid of guards at SE. The one to watch for that will be eventual replacement of the 375s, (or fitment of on board cameras to the current fleet).

 

[WizCastro197]

What are southeastern looking for specifically for the leasing tender?

750 DC and AC Traction motors that also have a 15 year life expectancy after 2027?

How many trains like this are there that other TOC's are willing to give up?

 

[Trainbike46]

What are southeastern looking for specifically for the leasing tender?

750 DC and AC Traction motors that also have a 15 year life expectancy after 2027?

How many trains like this are there that other TOC's are willing to give up?

The main other option I thought could be considered in the existing stock one was 350s. I'm not aware of any other EMUs going off lease that could meet the life expectancy requirement

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2022 ==

There also 348 vehicles of the 350s by my count

Alternatively, there's the 379s, but there's not nearly enough of them