SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[Julia]

Tender placed for SouthEastern fleet replacement:

... The quantity of vehicles in the core order will be between 350 and 570, with an option for up to 70 additional vehicles (these quantities have been calculated using an assumed 20m vehicle length). ...

... The business case will inform and determine which fleet or fleets are to be replaced and therefore will establish the final quantity for the core order In addition, follow-on options may be sought, to allow the fleet to be increased over time, depending on recovery of demand post pandemic Bidders will be required to propose a design based on an established platform, and demonstrate the ability to deliver on-time, obtain acceptance and introduce fleets into service in the UK, evidenced by previous procurements The key requirements of the new vehicles will include (but not be limited to):

o full compatibility with Southeastern infrastructure (excluding High Speed 1 infrastructure) o full compliance with all applicable accessibility regulations (PRM NTSN)

o interiors suitable for metro & mainline operation

o toilets

o air conditioning

o inclusion of options for traction batteries with capability for operation in depots and sidings without the need for external power supply, and with the capability to operate on the main line where power supply is not available due to isolations or incidents, or for non-electrified line sections of up to 20 miles Southeastern is seeking a new fleet manufactured, maintained and operated with sustainability in mind, and with reduced carbon footprint, energy usage and embedded carbon.

And Maintenance Support for New Rolling Stock for Southeastern [Tender Notice]

The overall objective of this procurement is cost reduction and cost avoidance, through securing the... A Tender Notice by SE Trains.

bidstats.uk

The numbers look like it's about right for disposing of most or all of the Networker fleet, but not much else.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The numbers look like it's about right for disposing of most or all of the Networker fleet, but not much else.

Silly. There's a perfect opportunity to finally give Southeastern a big, simple, homogeneous Metro fleet. Yet, it appears they want to have majority one fleet, with random toiletless, gangway-less, (air conditioning less in the 376's case) 376s and 707s turning up every now and then. Glad the horrendous Networkers are finally condemned though.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Silly. There's a perfect opportunity to finally give Southeastern a big, simple, homogeneous Metro fleet.

Agree entirely. Those numbers also suggest 5-car units.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Agree entirely. Those numbers also suggest 5-car units.

Agreed, albeit bloody odd when you consider that means running 10 car on the Bromley South line.

I don't know how things are loaded, but I would have assumed the smart money would have been actually on 6 car units, designed with ASDO so you can then run 12 car on the Tunbridge Wells, 6 car on the Maidstone East (as is the case now with 465/466 back), and not have to worry about places like Woolwich Dockyard.

That said, could the existing timetable from December (4tph Victoria to Bromley South and 2tph Blackfriars to Beckenham Junction) along with the Victoria to Lewisham side technically cope with a high-capacity 6 car? They used to use 6 car on Victoria trains at high peak when running every 20-25 minutes, so one assumes if 4tph ever kicks in then 6 cars from Lewisham will work.

 

[ScotGG]

It'd be nuts to go for 5 carriage trains. The whole network can take either 8 (Vic lines) or 12 (Charing X and Cannon St) with SDO.

6 car on Vic routes to Dartford were awful. That was 10 years back too and we aren't far off those levels of passengers.

Lewisham has and is changing massively with all the new skyscrapers. It needs eight car.

The total number of carriages looks too small to me to replace all class465/466. I expect high density interiors but still, this is for decades to come.

 

[ComUtoR]

6 car on Vic routes to Dartford were awful. That was 10 years back too and we aren't far off those levels of passengers.

Modern 6 car would have more capacity.

expect high density interiors but still, this is for decades to come.

3-5yrs

 

[ScotGG]

Higher capacity interiors surely aren't going to make up for losing two carriages on a very busy route serving areas of major growth if they go from 8 to 6.

It's quite possible no add on orders will be made so inadequate train lengths run for decades?

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like they want to be able to cover some non electrified sections, by fitting batteries as an option

o inclusion of options for traction batteries with capability for operation in depots and sidings without the need for external power supply, and with the capability to operate on the main line where power supply is not available due to isolations or incidents, or for non-electrified line sections of up to 20 miles Southeastern is seeking a new fleet manufactured, maintained and operated with sustainability in mind, and with reduced carbon footprint, energy usage and embedded carbon.

Clearly don’t want a repeat of SWR class 701 fiasco, with acceptance into unrestricted passenger service within timescale

Bidders should also have the current manufacturing capacity, capability and competency to deliver units powered by 750V electric third-rail which can be commissioned, tested and accepted into unrestricted passenger service within the stated timescale.

And Maintenance Support for New Rolling Stock for Southeastern [Tender Notice]

The overall objective of this procurement is cost reduction and cost avoidance, through securing the... A Tender Notice by SE Trains.

bidstats.uk

 

[ScotGG]

Wouldn't third rail extension be cheaper than every train lugging around batteries?

Just have to get the ORR to remove silly obstacles on third rail...

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn't third rail extension be cheaper than every train lugging around batteries?

Just have to get the ORR to remove silly obstacles on third rail...

Where are Southeastern going to run over non-electrified routes of up to 20 miles? Is someone suggesting that they run to Hastings via Ashford, as a means of removing (part of) the 171 fleet from Southern and this is the best way to go about procurement for that?

 

[Verulamius]

The recent Network Rail South London Strategy Report published earlier this summer recommended class 700 like trains in 4 and 6 car sets so that they would be able to combine to form 12 car services into London Bridge and 8 car services into Victoria and Blackfriars.

 

[WizCastro197]

How come the delivery date is set in 2057? Is it just a precautionary measure so if there is a repeat of 701s it is still in correct time estimation?


At least they have now finally recognised the need for toilets which are essential obviously.

 

[Domh245]

How come the delivery date is set in 2057? Is it just a precautionary measure so if there is a repeat of 701s it is still in correct time estimation?


At least they have now finally recognised the need for toilets which are essential obviously.

The contract includes maintenance support until 2057, but the units must all be in service by October 2027

 

[Snow1964]

How come the delivery date is set in 2057? Is it just a precautionary measure so if there is a repeat of 701s it is still in correct time estimation?

Its a 34 year maintenance contract too, which explain 2057 end date

 

[JonathanH]

At least they have now finally recognised the need for toilets which are essential obviously.

Networkers have had toilets since they were built. It isn't clear what happens to the 376s and 707s.

 

[Mikey C]

Where are Southeastern going to run over non-electrified routes of up to 20 miles? Is someone suggesting that they run to Hastings via Ashford, as a means of removing (part of) the 171 fleet from Southern and this is the best way to go about procurement for that?

The line to Hoo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2022 ==

350 to 570 vehicles is a massive range, not sure I quite understand that. 350 wouldn't replace all the Networkers in service now?

 

[ScottGallagher]

Do the Networkers still have Hitachi traction equipment and does that count as experience, perhaps they may bid?. No way is this order going offshore in the current political climate, so no Stadlers!

 

[WizCastro197]

Seeing as it only has under a month until its expiry date, what would happen if the tender is unsuccessful ie. Southeastern get no offers? Of Course there is still a lot of time left for any manufacturers to bid.

 

[JonathanH]

Seeing as it only has under a month until its expiry date, what would happen if the tender is unsuccessful ie. Southeastern get no offers?

That is a bit unlikely. They all have space in their order books after the trains currently being built.

The more interesting question is whether the price is right. One of the reasons given for the order is the increasing maintenance cost of the Networkers. Given the parlous state of the railway finances it seems a bit odd that new stock is being procured at all but presumably there is a large maintenance saving which might be achieved.

 

[Chiltern006]

honestly, siemens desiro cities are highly likely. not too sure about the aventras after the 701 situation. could stadler METRO be an option?

 

[Doomotron]

As for what could replace the Networkers, the only manufacturers that are 'ready' are Hitachi, Alstom and CAF. Each has their disadvantages - the Hitachi AT100 is an unproven design having never been built (although going for the AT200 may be sensible as they can directly replace 377/5s too, at the risk of not being totally suitable as Networker replacements), CAF trains are not particularly good (although we have to wait and see how the WMR and TFW ones turn out) and Alstom can't deliver on time at all.

could stadler METRO be an option?

Only if there is a UK version ready, which I doubt there is.

honestly, siemens desiro cities are highly likely.

Pretty sure they're out of production anyway... The tooling is likely gone anyway so restarting the production line would cost a premium.

 

[Mikey C]

That is a bit unlikely. They all have space in their order books after the trains currently being built.

The more interesting question is whether the price is right. One of the reasons given for the order is the increasing maintenance cost of the Networkers. Given the parlous state of the railway finances it seems a bit odd that new stock is being procured at all but presumably there is a large maintenance saving which might be achieved.

Indeed other than the HS2 trains, this is THE major UK order for the next few years.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed other than the HS2 trains, this is THE major UK order for the next few years.

You say that but it is 'jumping the queue' relative to DMU replacement. Bringing Networker replacement forward just leaves a gap once it is complete. Surely 375 / 377 replacement isn't until the late 2030s.

 

[43102EMR]

My money’s on more 707s being built, but I guess only time will tell.

 

[JonathanH]

My money’s on more 707s being built, but I guess only time will tell.

Is there any way by which they could be built in Goole?

I guess it should be recognised that even trains built in Derby involve some work being done abroad and trains built abroad include UK manufactured components. Is there any clue to the percentage value of UK manufacturing of the different options?

 

[Kite159]

My money’s on more 707s being built, but I guess only time will tell.

Depends on how much Siemens wants to restart the production line for the Desiro City product. But I agree more 707s but maybe split into 4 & 6 coach units for the different lengths.

Unless thinking outside the box, fixed length 8 & 12 coach units similar to the 700s. Although that will probably bring a larger cost to rebuild the depots to cope with longer units

 

[brad465]

Where are Southeastern going to run over non-electrified routes of up to 20 miles? Is someone suggesting that they run to Hastings via Ashford, as a means of removing (part of) the 171 fleet from Southern and this is the best way to go about procurement for that?

The line to Hoo.

There were proposals to re-use that line as far as Sharnal Street for passenger use, but it seems to have been dropped by covid and the fact the main demand is from the Medway Towns, not London-bound.

350 to 570 vehicles is a massive range, not sure I quite understand that. 350 wouldn't replace all the Networkers in service now?

350 no, but 570 would replace 142 4-car units worth, which would basically be all the 465s, and the presence of 707s now would presumably mean the 466 equivalent addition is covered too (or this optional additional 70 carriages would help towards that).

 

[Stephen42]

The line to Hoo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2022 ==

350 to 570 vehicles is a massive range, not sure I quite understand that. 350 wouldn't replace all the Networkers in service now?

570 vehicles would cover all current Networker diagrams assuming slightly higher availability for the new trains. 350 could in combination with more of the leasing component.

The range is small compared to the 350 to 810 vehicles for the parallel leasing of existing rolling stock tender. The full tender notice is here, but key requirements are quoted below - usable till 2042, toilets included but full aircon isn't:

The quantity of vehicles to be procured on lease is anticipated to be between 350 and 810 (these quantities have been calculated using an assumed 20m vehicle length). The precise number to be leased will be determined once tenders have been received

Southeastern will require either a lease or sub-lease for Rolling Stock which meets the key requirements which will include (but not be limited to):

o Availability of units in full unrestricted operational passenger service with Southeastern by 01 October 2027

o full compliance with all applicable accessibility regulations (PRM NTSN)

o compatibility with Southeastern infrastructure (excluding High Speed 1 infrastructure) and all approval processes completed by 01 October 2027

o bidders will be required to demonstrate that all vehicles tendered must not compromise the inter-operability, and must support the efficiency, of Southeastern's fleet operation

o all vehicles tendered must have a remaining useful life in passenger service of at least 15 years from October 2027

o units powered by 750V DC electric third rail

o suitable for metro operation

o doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions

o toilets

o cab air conditioning, as a minimum

o AC traction motors

o must not worsen energy consumption compared to the current Southeastern fleet

 

[ScotGG]

The Hoo line hasn't been dropped. Still in consultation over recent months.

570 vehicles is still not enough to make up entire 465/466 fleet is it, nor enough even when adding 12 more 707s to arrive?

 

[brad465]

If this order does get approved soon and is looking promising I can also see the 465/2s in storage heading for Newport very soon, particularly with 12x 707s still to come over as potential resilience (assuming 701s do actually enter service soon). I also wouldn't be surprised if the order is trying to replace the micro-fleets too, even if this stretches the fleet relative to demand. There are also maintenance savings to be made in having fewer varieties of stock, and costs are tight at the moment, while if the 376s at least are replaced with stock that can do 4/8/12, extra route flexibility is achieved, something this order also seeks.