South Western Railway contract extension

[JonathanH]

You forgot some of the others like Sunday trains after 1pm being similar to Saturday, the extra 22,000 seats into Waterloo in morning peak, free Wi-Fi on all the trains, and Wi-Fi at all stations, or refurbished toilets on all trains (ever been on a 458)

...... all still awaited

They didn't anticipate 50% fewer passengers travelling at peak time though.

 

[WrongRoad]

Service delivery has got worse, though, which very much is down to SWR. As fewer trains are running, performance really ought to be better.

Yes you are partly right, the real trouble for SWR is the very poor and unreliable Network Rail infrastructure it has to operate on. The SWR region is full of Emergency & Temporary Speed Restrictions which take months if not years to fix.There is always somewhere a Power Reduction Notice meaning trains have to operate at half power in certain sections which mean they can’t get to line speed and the acceleration is very slow costing time. For the past few days there’s been the signalling issues in the Rowlands Castle area.

 

[Towers]

As a related aside, does anybody know definitively what the issue with the Desiro fleet toilets? Pretty much every service seems to have a note saying that accessible toilet facilities are reduced, and experiences on board suggest some sort of ongoing issue with the toilets in general on the 444 & 450s. Is there a parts shortage, or is it something else?

 

[nw1]

Northern is failing for much of the same reasons as GTR didn’t work properly to start with. Too large an operation with too many different routes having completely different needs. It really should be split into at least two TOCs, ideally three.

Is fragmentation a good thing though?

It could be split into operating divisions, a la South Eastern, South Central and South Western Division of the Southern Region, if it is not already (and such things still exist) but separate companies just means less integrated timetable planning and multiple TOCs competing for paths.

It seems natural to me to have a single Northern TOC, because there is a lot of cross-Pennine traffic and routes so even the old LM/ER split doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'd go the other way and merge TPE and Northern, because they are both in the same area of the country (though obviously keep the long-distance stock with the long-distance services!)

My number one beef with privatisation was the fragmented nature of it; while politically I prefer public ownership for the railways I would have been a lot happier with a single franchise, or failing that, a small number of large regional TOCs (e.g. Southern, East Anglia, Great Western, Northern* and Scottish), running all passenger services (with regulated fares), to maximise integration and minimise bureaucracy.

(*basically combined LMS and LNER, minus Scotland and East Anglia, to produce a common TOC both sides of the Pennines).

 

[skyhigh]

Northern is failing for much of the same reasons as GTR didn’t work properly to start with. Too large an operation with too many different routes having completely different needs. It really should be split into at least two TOCs, ideally three.

You've got that backwards in my opinion. A lot of the issues are because Northern internally still acts as 2 companies - East and West work under very different T&Cs and have different attitudes. You have the issues of communication with 2 controls. It would be better to go the whole way and merge them completely.

 

[zwk500]

You've got that backwards in my opinion. A lot of the issues are because Northern internally still acts as 2 companies - East and West work under very different T&Cs and have different attitudes. You have the issues of communication with 2 controls. It would be better to go the whole way and merge them completely.

And with GTR - Southern and Thameslink are very definitely separate operations internally, not sure if GN are still a separate thing to TL north of the river though.

 

[Fazaar1889]

What is OLR? Is that government run TOCs?

 

[zwk500]

What is OLR? Is that government run TOCs?

Operator of Last Resort, a Government-owned holding company that takes over franchises when the private franchisee drops out. Currently it runs LNER, Northern and SouthEastern. Wales and Scotland have similar but not exactly the same setups. It's a bit complicated at the moment because during COVID lots of the franchise contracts were changed to management contracts, which operate very similarly to the OLR but the holding company is still the private franchisee.
The OLR has also previously run the East Coast franchise between NXEC and VTEC, and SouthEastern after Connex were booted out in 2003.

 

[43066]

And with GTR - Southern and Thameslink are very definitely separate operations internally, not sure if GN are still a separate thing to TL north of the river though.

Very much operationally seperate, with separate depots.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Operator of Last Resort, a Government-owned holding company that takes over franchises when the private franchisee drops out. Currently it runs LNER, Northern and SouthEastern. Wales and Scotland have similar but not exactly the same setups. It's a bit complicated at the moment because during COVID lots of the franchise contracts were changed to management contracts, which operate very similarly to the OLR but the holding company is still the private franchisee.
The OLR has also previously run the East Coast franchise between NXEC and VTEC, and SouthEastern after Connex were booted out in 2003.

ah yeah thanks

 

[cjmillsnun]

I dislike rewarding failure as much as the next man, but I'm not sure what other options they have.

SWR were failing even before Covid. They couldn’t manage the service level that SWT could.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

SWR were failing even before Covid. They couldn’t manage the service level that SWT could.

92% Right Time currently

http://trains.im/ppm/SW

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWR were failing even before Covid. They couldn’t manage the service level that SWT could.

On a very different railway. The Waterloo Capacity Upgrade which was underway as the franchise changed hands fundamentally changed Waterloo and it’s approaches, whilst it increased the number of platforms which in theory provided capacity for additional services the limitations it bought in, some expected and some only discovered once NR was completing the work (swinging overlaps on the former international platforms) meant delivery of the previous level of service was always going to be very difficult on a far less flexible station layout regardless of operator of the franchise.

 

[godfreycomplex]

92% Right Time currently

http://trains.im/ppm/SW

This doesn’t equate to service level, it equates to balance sheet level. Two very different things.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This doesn’t equate to service level, it equates to balance sheet level. Two very different things.

The service level like with SWT is specified by DfT.

 

[deepeetw]

92% Right Time currently

http://trains.im/ppm/SW

Based on a very generous definition of “right time” and a timetable that seems to be being slowly adjusted to make every journey longer than it used to be.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The service level like with SWT is specified by DfT.

The service level is specified by the utility or otherwise to the community the railway serves, let’s not forget

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Based on a very generous definition of “right time” and a timetable that seems to be being slowly adjusted to make every journey longer than it used to be.

Yes for sure padded timetables are the order of the day

 

[pompeyfan]

As a related aside, does anybody know definitively what the issue with the Desiro fleet toilets? Pretty much every service seems to have a note saying that accessible toilet facilities are reduced, and experiences on board suggest some sort of ongoing issue with the toilets in general on the 444 & 450s. Is there a parts shortage, or is it something else?

The uniloos don’t like being forced open, but in the same breath it’s only recently become required to report to passengers defective accessible toilets.

 

[Snow1964]

What is OLR? Is that government run TOCs?

Yes, it's operator of last resort based in Waterloo station.

Here is Companies House link, the annual accounts have pages of its activities and what it does

DFT OPERATOR LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

DFT OPERATOR LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes for sure padded timetables are the order of the day

Horribly so - one wonders how far the trend will go. Every time there is an 'improvement', door opening times increase, for example (and thus dwell times), it seems, along with sundry other small individual increases in timings culminating in significanty slower journeys.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Horribly so - one wonders how far the trend will go. Every time there is an 'improvement', door opening times increase, for example (and thus dwell times), it seems, along with sundry other small individual increases in timings culminating in significanty slower journeys.

Indeed and im not convinced it actually helps ppm either now. trains arrive at jcns too early get bought to a stand and then lose time reaccelerating.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Pre-Covid they seemed to be in quite a lot of financial trouble.

The announcement from Mr Shapps comes after SWR's recent financial statements indicated the franchise was "not sustainable in the long term".

Struggling South Western Railway franchise could be nationalised

THE franchise that operates railway services between Dorset and London could be nationalised by the Department for Transport.

www.bournemouthecho.co.uk

Quite a turnaround, they must be very relieved to have got through all that onto a low risk deal.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The original financial issues at SWR originated from the timetable assumptions. Bid timetables in that era were devised by the DfT and NR HQ with little input from the NR route. The same with the route capabilities.

So the bid timetable was basically inoperable. Bidders knew that there could be issues but they had to play the game or lose. You made sure you got as many reopeners into your Franchise Agreement as you possibly could.

Then you had to add the Waterloo remodelling (ongoing at franchise change) into the mix, which made a further mess of things, this time with the then current timetable.

So, with assumed revenue heading south, FG had to make provisions in its books for the losses whilst it argued with the DfT as to the extent the franchise should be adjusted to take all the relevant factors into account.

In this era, I don’t think the DfT let many franchises without there being subsequent grief for all concerned.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In this era, I don’t think the DfT let many franchises without there being subsequent grief for all concerned.

Had Covid not intervened FSWR would have had to exhaust its parent company guarantee first of which its share was 100m or 145m across the franchise so that provided a fair bit of non governmental subsidy. However, as franchise terminated earlier they settled for less and have ended up better off under the subsequent management contracts.

 

[VauxhallNova]

No doubt SWR will continue lots of things from their first five years:

they'll continue not introducing the new trains they promised
they'll continue not carrying out the refurbishments they promised
they'll continue not running the trains they refurbished then scrapped
they'll continue running outer suburban 3+2 stock on longer distance services
and of course they'll continue driving passengers away....

And they'll continue getting their guaranteed profits courtesy of taxpayers funding everything.

I wonder if any of these were committed obligations?

 

[Clarence Yard]

All irrelevant once the Government took over. The committed obligations effectively went out the window and SWR just did what the DfT wanted them to do and FG collected nice management fees for the privilege.

Just before COVID, there had been a right row brewing between FG and the DfT over the SWR franchise and just how much of the mess was down to the DfT’s specification. After some discussion, the DfT started to do an exercise to compare a revised proposal from FG against what OLR could offer. COVID happened shortly afterwards.

 

[DelW]

Then you had to add the Waterloo remodelling (ongoing at franchise change) into the mix, which made a further mess of things, this time with the then current timetable.

Of course this is post-covid hindsight, but it seems that a lot of time, effort and money ended up being wasted on the Waterloo suburban side remodelling, producing a layout that's apparently more awkward to operate than its predecessor (from comments read on here a while ago). The motivation, enabling 10 coach metro area trains, only lasted a short time until the 456s were withdrawn and scrapped. When the 701s eventually enter service* the longer platforms will be fully used again, but is the extra capacity still needed?

My impression is that 8 car 2x455 sets are quite adequate even with the present reduced timetables, but I no longer use those services myself so I may be mistaken there.

[*edited to remove a speculative element]

 

[Snow1964]

What I find odd about this thread, is that it is over two weeks since First Group announced DfT had exercised its option to extend to May 2025, but the DfT has remained silent and not made any announcements, or updated any of its rail contracts webpages

Released : 10.02.2023

FIRSTGROUP PLC
SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY CONTRACT EXTENSION
FirstGroup plc ('FirstGroup' or ‘the Group') today announces that the Department for Transport (‘DfT’) have exercised their option to continue the current contractual arrangements for the Group’s South Western Railway (‘SWR’) train operating company for the full two year extension period, as set out in SWR’s National Rail Contract (‘NRC’). The current NRC, which began in May 2021, will now run until 25 May 2025 on the existing terms.

South Western Railway Contract Extension

Public register of rail passenger contracts

Contract documents for passenger railway services in England and details of how to request contract information.

www.gov.uk

First MTR South Western Trains Limited 2021 rail contract

Rail contract and ancillary legal documents for South Western Railway.

www.gov.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

What I find odd about this thread, is that it is over two weeks since First Group announced DfT had exercised its option to extend to May 2025, but the DfT has remained silent and not made any announcements, or updated any of its rail contracts webpages

South Western Railway Contract Extension

Public register of rail passenger contracts

Contract documents for passenger railway services in England and details of how to request contract information.

www.gov.uk

First MTR South Western Trains Limited 2021 rail contract

Rail contract and ancillary legal documents for South Western Railway.

www.gov.uk

So the DfT Media/Press team haven't got their act together.