South Wales 'Metro' updates

[positron]

According to BBC Travel it was a trespass incident but only 10 miniute delays through Queen St were indicated.

I was delayed by a little under an hour getting from central to the bay. Other services which weren't as close to the incident would have been even more delayed as they processed all the congestion too. Definitely more than a minor delay imo.

It'll be interesting to see how the metro handles such incidents in future given Queen street will be an incredibly important piece of the puzzle with an even more intensive service.

 

[Envoy]

They weren’t exactly slick at getting things back to normal after yesterday’s incident just south of Queen Street.

 

[Bob Price]

Interesting originally the track surrounding the Hengoed station area was going to be catenary free.

Notice them north of the bridge today. They are moving at quite a pace

 

[positron]

They weren’t exactly slick at getting things back to normal after yesterday’s incident just south of Queen Street.

Yeah even once the incident was resolved on the ground the signalling took a while to get updated to release trains to start moving again.

I did actually wonder how the 756s held up on battery, curious if they had to dip into their fuel supply or not.

I imagine it could be a problem for the 398s to be stranded like that for a long period.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==

Finally got round to seeing the new Cardiff Bay station platform and it really is massive. Be interesting to see how busy it really gets to whether it's justified.

Still lots of work before the station itself is finished the new entrance area is still a crater.

 

[Envoy]

Finally got round to seeing the new Cardiff Bay station platform and it really is massive. Be interesting to see how busy it really gets to whether it's justified.

Still lots of work before the station itself is finished the new entrance area is still a crater.

I think that when the new Arena opens, that they will have to shift large crowds suddenly. Also note that the Wales Millennium Centre (Concert Hall/Opera House) also has large numbers of people attending shows. In addition, you have the busy waterfront plus local residences and don't forget that they hope to extend the Metro eastward - hence the present alignments.

 

[AdamWW]

Finally got round to seeing the new Cardiff Bay station platform and it really is massive. Be interesting to see how busy it really gets to whether it's justified.

I can see it being a useful place to stash 398s when services collapse.

Also note that the Wales Millennium Centre (Concert Hall/Opera House) also has large numbers of people attending shows.

Though in my experience not many of them use the train. Might change with more frequent services, and maybe ones that run a little later at night than at present.

 

[J663738]

They weren’t exactly slick at getting things back to normal after yesterday’s incident just south of Queen Street.

Your not wrong, looking at trains in and out of Penarth today, there are 26 listed cancellations so far, but don't worry TfW say there is a "Good Service" on the line!
I just rung up TfW to complain and was told they are very sorry but today's issue is they have multiple units that are broken and no spare trains. Also they are very sorry about not being able to introduce the new trains quicker, told it was due to electrification issues??
At least the customer services are honest!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Your not wrong, looking at trains in and out of Penarth today, there are 26 listed cancellations so far, but don't worry TfW say there is a "Good Service" on the line!
I just rung up TfW to complain and was told they are very sorry but today's issue is they have multiple units that are broken and no spare trains. Also they are very sorry about not being able to introduce the new trains quicker, told it was due to electrification issues??
At least the customer services are honest!

How delightful it must be to spend all your life complaining. Out of interest, were you planning to use one of the cancelled trains? At least the customer services are polite to serial whingers.

 

[John R]

How delightful it must be to spend all your life complaining. Out of interest, were you planning to use one of the cancelled trains? At least the customer services are polite to serial whingers.

It’s almost as good as the poster on another thread who was querying why a TfW station somewhere in the sticks now looked completely different (and not to his liking) and said they were inclined to phone up TfW to ask why. But they said they had never used the station!!

 

[AdamWW]

How delightful it must be to spend all your life complaining. Out of interest, were you planning to use one of the cancelled trains? At least the customer services are polite to serial whingers.

That's not very nice.

If TfW don't want "serial whingers" they need to start showing a bit of consideration to their passengers.

As an aside, several times when I've discussed what seemed like bad decision making by TfW with staff on the ground they have not only agreed but asked me to put in a complaint.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How delightful it must be to spend all your life complaining. Out of interest, were you planning to use one of the cancelled trains? At least the customer services are polite to serial whingers.

Why are you consistently defensive on TfW’s behalf? If you work for them, it won’t get you a promotion Criticism where due is fair and justified, and TfW have constantly under-delivered.

That's not very nice.

If TfW don't want "serial whingers" they need to start showing a bit of consideration to their passengers.

As an aside, several times when I've discussed what seemed like bad decision making by TfW with staff on the ground they have not only agreed but asked me to put in a complaint.

Well said.

 

[tfw756rider]

It’s almost as good as the poster on another thread who was querying why a TfW station somewhere in the sticks now looked completely different (and not to his liking) and said they were inclined to phone up TfW to ask why. But they said they had never used the station!!

Actually, that poster was going to message Transport for Wales (TfW), not phone them up, and did point out that although they had never used the station, it's on a line that they have used, and the point was that they were initially shocked by the change (based on "before and after" photos). It was thanks to the majority of helpful replies (that weren't from someone accusing them of "bothering" TfW about something that didn't "affect" them) that they then had a much better understanding of the situation, felt much better about it and therefore no longer felt the need to message TfW.

For the second time, I see no reason to carry on this discussion so let's end it here, thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

Why are you consistently defensive on TfW’s behalf? If you work for them, it won’t get you a promotion Criticism where due is fair and justified, and TfW have constantly under-delivered.

Well said.

Exactly. While I'm against "TfW bashing", I'm also not going to pretend that everything they do is right, and I feel people should be allowed to give criticism without it being responded to with unpleasant, sarcastic, accusatory, name calling responses.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2025 ==

Your not wrong, looking at trains in and out of Penarth today, there are 26 listed cancellations so far, but don't worry TfW say there is a "Good Service" on the line!
I just rung up TfW to complain and was told they are very sorry but today's issue is they have multiple units that are broken and no spare trains. Also they are very sorry about not being able to introduce the new trains quicker, told it was due to electrification issues??
At least the customer services are honest!

Let's get back to the South Wales Metro discussion shall we, following on from this perfectly valid post from @Jantra

 

[positron]

With the new train depot at Barry for the metro services are Tfw expecting to make less use of Rhymney sidings or are metro vehicles going to be mostly at Taffs Well and Barry with additional siding usage at Treherbert and Rhymney?

I'm guessing Barry is mostly to replace Canton. But canton is still used for refueling and maintenance.

Also if there's a need to keep trains at the end of the line for morning services, how come there's no sidings at Aberdare and/or Merthyr Tydfil?

 

[J663738]

how come there's no sidings at Aberdare and/or Merthyr Tydfil?

I don't think there's room at either station, Aberdare is on a raised section and Merthyr is basically in a Tesco's car park!
Probably makes sense to from a security point of view not to have too many storage depots.

 

[CardiffKid]

...are are metro vehicles going to be mostly at Taffs Well and Barry with additional siding usage at Treherbert and Rhymney?

I'm guessing Barry is mostly to replace Canton. But canton is still used for refueling and maintenance.

Depends on how you define 'metro vehicles'.

398s will be based in Taff's Well. No other units should ever go there.

231s and 756s will be split between Canton, Barry and Rhymney.

 

[chrisjo]

Depends on how you define 'metro vehicles'.

A bit confusing when 398s and 756s have 'Metro' written on them, but the 231s don't!

 

[Envoy]

A bit confusing when 398s and 756s have 'Metro' written on them, but the 231s don't!

The 398’s and 756’s will be operating on routes with a high frequency. The 231’s will be on routes such as Ebbw Vale - Cardiff - Maesteg and Cardiff - Cheltenham with lower frequency. Having said that, i think you have a point as all the places the 231’s serve can also be considered as part of Cardiff’s commuter land - well maybe apart from Lydney to Cheltenham.

 

[positron]

Yeah I think the idea is that because they don't operate at 4tph nor entirely within the pay as you go area they don't get the metro branding. Id still consider them "metro vehicles" though personally.

 

[tfw756rider]

A bit confusing when 398s and 756s have 'Metro' written on them, but the 231s don't!

The 231s are branded as Wales & Borders because they'll be on the Gloucester/Cheltenhams and the "non-valleys lines" valleys lines (Ebbw Vale and Maesteg) once the 398s are in service and all the 398s and 756s are working what they should be.

 

[Ib5]

With the new train depot at Barry for the metro services are Tfw expecting to make less use of Rhymney sidings or are metro vehicles going to be mostly at Taffs Well and Barry with additional siding usage at Treherbert and Rhymney?

I'm guessing Barry is mostly to replace Canton. But canton is still used for refueling and maintenance.

Also if there's a need to keep trains at the end of the line for morning services, how come there's no sidings at Aberdare and/or Merthyr Tydfil?

Barry is very much a relief site for Canton, the majority of not all the sites work will be valley sets 756s.

Canton will be majority mainline, with maintenance of the 756/231 fleet.

Expect lots of empty (expensive) running from Taff Wells to the heads of the Valleys af Merthyr and Aberdare.

There are now substantial numbers of traincrew permanently based at Taff Well and Barry in addition to Treherbert, Rhymney and Cardiff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

Depends on how you define 'metro vehicles'.

398s will be based in Taff's Well. No other units should ever go there.

231s and 756s will be split between Canton, Barry and Rhymney.

No other CAN physically go there thanks to the amazing tight curves!

Stabling and fuelling at Rhymney, likewise Barry. Mothership work at Canton on both stadler fleets.

 

[John R]

Expensive empty running?

A stopping service only takes 45 mins from Taffs Well to Merthyr, so non stop when little else is running should take just over 30 mins (which is only 15 mins more than for those which will work down to Cardiff to start there day.)

And it will only be at the start and end of day, so in the grand scheme of things the cost will be minor, and probably less than the cost of maintaining stock there and having another crew depot.

 

[Ib5]

Expensive in terms of unproductive traincrew, empty stock moves with no revenue etc, traction power with no revenue to offset etc.

It’s an unavoidable consequence of how the service is required to operate, ie an early service off heads of the valleys stations.

Also running 7 empty stock trains from Barry depot to Cardiff, and return in the evening is a consequence of have the main traction depot in Cardiff which is still using a layout designed in the 60s.

 

[J663738]

Can I ask the more experienced on here about terminating trains at Central. Yesterday evening there was again long delays due to train congestion. Arrived from Caerphilly on a late running and terminating 231, and platform 8 was chaotic, with people waiting for Barry/Bridgend, automated announcement saying this is your Barry service, guard shouting at people, that this train is not in service, so I just left the station as I assumed (wrongly) I had missed the Penarth service.
Arrived back 20 minutes later and yet more terminating 756/231's arriving at platform 7/8 which just sat there because their path was blocked, by guess what other trains waiting to arrive and having no platform available. The Barry train was 35 minutes late and then to add insult it would run 'fast' to Barry, (or to put it another way sod the people wanting other stations) the Penarth train had to be moved to platform 6.
Again the automated announcements are comedy gold, telling people this is you Barry train, guards shouting no its not, and getting people who had jumped on, off the train, while others further up the platform jumped on!
Comedy aside, I am at a loss on how a situation where terminating trains cause grid lock, which I have seen many, many times can arise so easily.

If they do run more trains during the day, this will no doubt lead to more trains needing to be terminated during evening, how are going to be able to cope?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

This maybe completely irrelevant (and my apologies if it is), but I notice that there's work going on on the westerly end of Canton Depot, which is visible from the main line.

Does anyone know what this is, please? Thanks.

 

[Ib5]

Blowing my own trumpet now, I assume I’m the only one on this board who can offer an actual real work experience of Cardiff Central from an operational background.

On a normal (non event day) there is often congestion on platforms 6/7/8 and the mainline side due only having capacity on “CWM2” signal which allows access to canton depot for two short trains circa 6 cars.

The third train then sticks out fouling the “city lines” which then causes issues at Central with trains not being able fo depart west.

It only takes one train to be delayed onto Canton for rhe snowball effect to really take hold, before you know it you’ve trains stacked back to Queen street and beyond.

Also add in the lifts on platforms 6/7 are currently out or use, so you have to run trains via platform 4 or 8 for north bound trains if they have mobility impaired passengers.

Also….when there is disruption, crew will be over their working days so arrive and run leaving trains unattended in the platform which adds to the chaos.

 

[Caaardiff]

Barry is very much a relief site for Canton, the majority of not all the sites work will be valley sets 756s.

Canton will be majority mainline, with maintenance of the 756/231 fleet.

Expect lots of empty (expensive) running from Taff Wells to the heads of the Valleys af Merthyr and Aberdare.

There are now substantial numbers of traincrew permanently based at Taff Well and Barry in addition to Treherbert, Rhymney and Cardiff.

Isn't that how all train companies work? They can't just leave a unit in any station overnight. They need to be maintained and serviced and start at the train crew depot locations to avoid taxi costs.

 

[John R]

Isn't that how all train companies work? They can't just leave a unit in any station overnight. They need to be maintained and serviced and start at the train crew depot locations to avoid taxi costs.

Exactly, and in terms of a diagram that will be running up and down between the heads of the valleys and Cardiff all day, a positioning move at the start and end of day will be a minor cost. (And it will only be for a proportion of the diagrams, by no means all.) I'm sure TfW did the maths, and made a more informed decision than might be implied by those critical of the practice.

 

[Ib5]

Isn't that how all train companies work? They can't just leave a unit in any station overnight. They need to be maintained and serviced and start at the train crew depot locations to avoid taxi costs.

Not all no, some operate lodging turns with crew staying with the train during the layover from the last train to first.

Expecting a crew to stay at Merthyr from 0000 to 0530 might be pushing it though !

I did go on to say it’s an unfortunate coat to run the required early services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

Exactly, and in terms of a diagram that will be running up and down between the heads of the valleys and Cardiff all day, a positioning move at the start and end of day will be a minor cost. (And it will only be for a proportion of the diagrams, by no means all.) I'm sure TfW did the maths, and made a more informed decision than might be implied by those critical of the practice.

I’m sure they did, having suffered 3hr taxi rides from the far flung destinations from last trains I know all about the efficiency of diagraming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2025 ==

To drag the thread back on course….the tram line connection orf street back onto Cardiff West (if approved and funded) will be a single lead junction of a twin track ramp behind Central station.

There will be NO flyover, dive under massive rebuild of Cardiff West Junc. Minor interventions will enable a wider and much better return on the outlay across South East Wales however.

 

[John R]

Not all no, some operate lodging turns with crew staying with the train during the layover from the last train to first.

That may well be the case for long distance operators, (eg I believe Lumo has a lodging turn in London), but I would be interested in any TOCs doing it on routes where the distance between the depot and outpost is less than 20 miles.

 

[Anonymous10]

Expensive in terms of unproductive traincrew, empty stock moves with no revenue etc, traction power with no revenue to offset etc.

It’s an unavoidable consequence of how the service is required to operate, ie an early service off heads of the valleys stations.

Also running 7 empty stock trains from Barry depot to Cardiff, and return in the evening is a consequence of have the main traction depot in Cardiff which is still using a layout designed in the 60s.

Wouldn't they just have a few diagrams starting in barry and finishing in canton and vice versa ?