South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Cardiff123]

Anyone know what's going on today?

Queen Street seems to be completely closed.

Yet I can't see any engineering work listed that would have this effect, or any mention of it on Twitter.

The Rhymney Line is supposed to have a full closure, but I can't see anything about all other Valley Lines services being sent down the City Line instead.

All I can see is a rather cryptic message on the web site:


Meanwhile the service status page is claiming a good services on all lines (except the Bay line which is closed again), presumably because the full planned services of no trains is running without delays or cancellations.

There's no "Line Update" on Journeycheck.

Realtimetrains for Queen Street is just showing some buses to the Bay in the evening.

If I were handing out prizes for good customer communications none of them would go TfW's way (e.g. saying "ticket acceptance agreed" without actually mentioning that this is because all trains are cancelled is par for the course) but they normally do better than this.

It was far worse until around 11:30am, as the TAM lines were also shut this morning due to a signal failure north of Radyr. The only trains running were from Bridgend, Barry Island & Penarth into Cardiff Central.

 

[WAB]

Anyone know what's going on today?

Queen Street seems to be completely closed.

Yet I can't see any engineering work listed that would have this effect, or any mention of it on Twitter.

The Rhymney Line is supposed to have a full closure, but I can't see anything about all other Valley Lines services being sent down the City Line instead.

All I can see is a rather cryptic message on the web site:


Meanwhile the service status page is claiming a good services on all lines (except the Bay line which is closed again), presumably because the full planned services of no trains is running without delays or cancellations.

There's no "Line Update" on Journeycheck.

Realtimetrains for Queen Street is just showing some buses to the Bay in the evening.

If I were handing out prizes for good customer communications none of them would go TfW's way (e.g. saying "ticket acceptance agreed" without actually mentioning that this is because all trains are cancelled is par for the course) but they normally do better than this.

There have been planned engineering works at Queen Street on Sunday.

 

[AdamWW]

There have been planned engineering works at Queen Street on Sunday.

Do you know where this was publicised beforehand? I can't see anything in any of the usual places.

 

[WAB]

Do you know where this was publicised beforehand? I can't see anything in any of the usual places.

I understand that the trains weren't showing in the journey planner earlier this week.

 

[AdamWW]

I understand that the trains weren't showing in the journey planner earlier this week.

Well that's something.

But if they now expect regular passengers to keep checking journey planners in case of stealth engineering work I think they ought to let them know.

Particularly as anyone heading North from Llandaff would have to either walk to Radyr or get a bus into town and a train back the way they came.

 

[Ib5]

I'd take that statement by Ken Skates with a bucket of salt. None of the planned test runs of the 756s to Penarth, Coryton & Caerphilly have run yet.

The Coryton branch OLE is isolated so there’ll be no electric 756s anytime soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

The Cardiff West improvements would initially be at-grade to allow increase in City Line capacity from 2tph to 4 tph. But this will later need a flyover or underpass to enable Crossrail services of additional 4tph. I dont know what is considered in the budget.

These are all TfW or CC services but which are constrained by NR infrastructure.

There is no way without massive engineering you’ll get a grade separated (flyover or dive under) at Cardiff West Junction area. Not without total destruction and relocation of Canton depot anyway.

The enhancement, which is very good news) is the addition of a few points to remove the in effect single line pinch point between Radyr Branch Junction (city lines) and the actual station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==

Cardiff East (Newport Rd/Rover Way) is not Cardiff Parkway (St Mellons). I understand that Crossrail will initially terminate at Cardiff East. The extension to Parkway (along Relief lines) is aspirational at the moment.

However I cant see any problem with speed of 398s... how many trains exceed 60mph on this stretch snyway?

When the relief lines are upgraded to higher speeds and combined with the new stations, quite a few !

 

[AdamWW]

The Coryton branch OLE is isolated so there’ll be no electric 756s anytime soon.

Oh. Do you know why they had to turn the power back off?

Presumably they could still run a 756 there on battery or diesel.

 

[Ib5]

Oh. Do you know why they had to turn the power back off?

Presumably they could still run a 756 there on battery or diesel.

You can still run non electric traction yes, technical issues as I understand it.

 

[Smwrff]

The Coryton branch OLE is isolated so there’ll be no electric 756s anytime soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==



There is no way without massive engineering you’ll get a grade separated (flyover or dive under) at Cardiff West Junction area. Not without total destruction and relocation of Canton depot anyway.

The enhancement, which is very good news) is the addition of a few points to remove the in effect single line pinch point between Radyr Branch Junction (city lines) and the actual station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2025 ==



When the relief lines are upgraded to higher speeds and combined with the new stations, quite a few !

I think this comes down to definition of 'massive'. Any under or over pass would only need to be built to Light Rail not Heavy Rail standards which would drastically reduce run up (run down) and there is plenty of unused space around Canton depot so no need for any destruction or relocation.

 

[MikePJ]

Mention of Canton depot got me thinking that the works on Cardiff West Junction could potentially include adding an electrified route from Canton's electrified sidings to the main line platforms at Central. Whilst that's of limited immediate use right now (because nothing depoted at Canton currently needs it), it would allow Canton to handle EMUs in the future, and might be worth doing whilst everything's disrupted for the trackworks. In particular, if the 231s are ever upgraded to work on electric, it would allow them to work from Canton onto the mainline without needing to run their engines.

 

[tigermonstera]

A pre-application consultation (see here) for the redevelopment of St Martin's Church Hall on Crwys Road has opened. This will form the western access to Crwys Road station from Crwys Road.

Description of Development
Demolition of existing part 2 and part 3 storey disused church hall and erection of replacement 6 storey building (plus lower ground floor) to comprise a police office (on lower and upper ground floors) and 25no 1-bed affordable flats (on first to fifth floors) with associated parking, landscape and access to new Crwys Rd railway station

 

[thejsa]

A pre-application consultation (see here) for the redevelopment of St Martin's Church Hall on Crwys Road has opened. This will form the western access to Crwys Road station from Crwys Road.

Ooh, good spot… very interesting.

 

[MikePJ]

That is interesting. I vaguely remember that the original station planning application had an access via Alexander St and the residents then complained about it - is this access additional, or was it always in the plans for the station?

(EDIT: yes, it was always proposed but TfW were negotiating with the site owners about exactly what would be provided)

 

[positron]

Planning permission was approved in 2023 for a new rail station to be developed along
Crwys Road which is due to open in 2028

Interesting tidbit 2028 is a new date for that station.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Interesting tidbit 2028 is a new date for that station.

3 more years? Jeez...

 

[AdamWW]

3 more years? Jeez...

If they're saying 2028 now if might turn out to be a bit later than that...

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

3 more years? Jeez...

Presumably that's because the enabling development has to take place either first or concurrently. I'd say that since the enabling project is only at the pre-planning consultation stage that three years may even be a tad optimistic!

I do understand the frustration though since I suspect Crwys Road will rapidly become one of the busiest stations on the CVL network.

 

[J663738]

I used the shuttle bus from Cardiff Airport to Rhoose Train Station yesterday.
A couple of observations......

The signage at Rhoose Station is terrible for foreign visitors. A Dutch man and myself were the only people on the bus. I went to the correct platform but he disappeared. He went to the other platform and then returned and asked me how to get to Cardiff?, saying "where's Rymi?" I explained it was Rhynmey and yes this train does stop at Cardiff. Rhoose does have staggered platforms which makes is even more confusing and when the barriers come down you can get stuck on the wrong platform, until the train you want has departed.

I can see his confusion, for a supposed 'Airport Train Station' where the vast majority will be trying to get to Cardiff there was no signs, just the bilingual dot matrix display listing all the stations the train would be calling at, first in Welsh then in English. You would have to stare at it for over a minutes to catch Cardiff amongst the other 20 or so destinations in both languages. Most people would expect the destination to be main city the Airport serves as this would be the case for most airports.

So why on earth can't TfW put up a sign saying: Notice to Airport Travellers "Platform 1 for trains Cardiff Central" they could have it in French/German/Dutch ?

It seems in TfW's strive to promote Welsh they have forgotten the bigger picture in how to communicate with people that are not from Wales.

Second point, despite a full plane only two people using the train, bus driver wanted to know was the plane empty or what!

 

[Topological]

I used the shuttle bus from Cardiff Airport to Rhoose Train Station yesterday.
A couple of observations......

The signage at Rhoose Station is terrible for foreign visitors. A Dutch man and myself were the only people on the bus. I went to the correct platform but he disappeared. He went to the other platform and then returned and asked me how to get to Cardiff?, saying "where's Rymi?" I explained it was Rhynmey and yes this train does stop at Cardiff. Rhoose does have staggered platforms which makes is even more confusing and when the barriers come down you can get stuck on the wrong platform, until the train you want has departed.

I can see his confusion, for a supposed 'Airport Train Station' where the vast majority will be trying to get to Cardiff there was no signs, just the bilingual dot matrix display listing all the stations the train would be calling at, first in Welsh then in English. You would have to stare at it for over a minutes to catch Cardiff amongst the other 20 or so destinations in both languages. Most people would expect the destination to be main city the Airport serves as this would be the case for most airports.

So why on earth can't TfW put up a sign saying: Notice to Airport Travellers "Platform 1 for trains Cardiff Central" they could have it in French/German/Dutch ?

It seems in TfW's strive to promote Welsh they have forgotten the bigger picture in how to communicate with people that are not from Wales.

Second point, despite a full plane only two people using the train, bus driver wanted to know was the plane empty or what!

Fully agree. It is not hard to have better signage at an airport station.

Cardiff stations are very convenient for the city centre, promoting their existence should not be too difficult.

The line also needs a better service if the airport connection is going to be seen as an option for most travellers though.

 

[Ib5]

I think this comes down to definition of 'massive'. Any under or over pass would only need to be built to Light Rail not Heavy Rail standards which would drastically reduce run up (run down) and there is plenty of unused space around Canton depot so no need for any destruction or relocation.

As the whole of Cardiff west is and will remain network rail infrastructure any development would need to be to current heavy rail standards, as an aside you’d also need to keep access for heavy rail to run via Ninian park and the Leckwith single line back onto the mainline.

The “spare” land around canton is the triangle between the Barry lines and Penarth curve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Mention of Canton depot got me thinking that the works on Cardiff West Junction could potentially include adding an electrified route from Canton's electrified sidings to the main line platforms at Central. Whilst that's of limited immediate use right now (because nothing depoted at Canton currently needs it), it would allow Canton to handle EMUs in the future, and might be worth doing whilst everything's disrupted for the trackworks. In particular, if the 231s are ever upgraded to work on electric, it would allow them to work from Canton onto the mainline without needing to run their engines.

The work is a few point ends to allow a de conflict of movements from the Up & Dn trefforest lines to the platforms.

The remodelling of Cardiff central back in 2016/17 was designed with the use of platform 4 much more than now for valley services, it’s seldom used for that however. If you look at the west end layout there are two lines unconflicted from Ninian park into platform 4 and 6, but you have a conflict from the UP barry into platform 6 or 7.

 

[Smwrff]

As the whole of Cardiff west is and will remain network rail infrastructure any development would need to be to current heavy rail standards, as an aside you’d also need to keep access for heavy rail to run via Ninian park and the Leckwith single line back onto the mainline.

The “spare” land around canton is the triangle between the Barry lines and Penarth curve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

But why??

The flyover/underpass - and all City Line & future NW corridor - will routinely only be used by tram-trains in the future. In my opinion the entirety of the City Line (and Penarth Line south of Cogan junction) should be transferred to TfW ownership and reclassifed as Light Rail.

The Canton Depot would need to be retained by NR as heavy rail and there is plenty of avaiable land available to separate out Heavy Rail movements at grade if required.

A bit of lateral thinking is needed.....

 

[tigermonstera]

The 2021 North West Corridor report (available here) outlines some options for grade separations:

A grade-separated junction (tunnel or flyover) would offer much greater capacity and would allow the City Line/North West Corridor to be fully or partially segregated from the Barry/Penarth Lines and services. While further assessment is required, a tunnel under the Barry Lines at the Penarth Curve is the most likely form of grade-separated junction given the potential height of a flyover and the visual intrusion created by the new structure.

Variant 1
Under this variant, a new tunnel or flyover would shift the North West Corridor services onto the existing alignment of the two most southerly tracks (i.e. the current alignment of the Barry Lines). The Barry/Penarth services would be diverted to the north to connect into what is currently the City Lines. This variant involves a realignment of existing tracks and re-routing of services rather than any overall increase in the footprint of the approach to Cardiff Central.

Variant 2
Under this variant, the North West Corridor services coming from the City Line would be diverted onto a new section of track within the triangular piece of land south of Canton Depot. A tunnel / flyover would connect to a new tram-train route located to the south of the existing Barry Lines. The alignment would run parallel to the existing track. A new bridge would be required to carry the new track across Clare Road followed by a new bridge over the river Taff and into a new station south of Cardiff Central. As such, this option would involve widening the footprint of the approach to Cardiff Central.

The new section of track may need to be a single line section due to the restricted space available. A high-level assessment suggests the length of the single line section would be sufficiently short to allow a high frequency of service notwithstanding the need for trains to wait for the single line section to clear.

(from pages 72 and 73)

 

[MikePJ]

But why??

The flyover/underpass - and all City Line & future NW corridor - will routinely only be used by tram-trains in the future. In my opinion the entirety of the City Line (and Penarth Line south of Cogan junction) should be transferred to TfW ownership and reclassifed as Light Rail.

The Canton Depot would need to be retained by NR as heavy rail and there is plenty of avaiable land available to separate out Heavy Rail movements at grade if required.

A bit of lateral thinking is needed.....

It's worth noting that Canton's owned by Welsh Government so in theory a new line built through there could be a little island of TfW track with Network Rail either side. A flat crossing could be retained for heavy rail trains needing to use the junction occasionally.

 

[Ib5]

But why??

The flyover/underpass - and all City Line & future NW corridor - will routinely only be used by tram-trains in the future. In my opinion the entirety of the City Line (and Penarth Line south of Cogan junction) should be transferred to TfW ownership and reclassifed as Light Rail.

The Canton Depot would need to be retained by NR as heavy rail and there is plenty of avaiable land available to separate out Heavy Rail movements at grade if required.

A bit of lateral thinking is needed.....

Good job your opinion doesn’t dictate policy then. If you down grade the “Barry lines” via Grangetown to Cogan and Penarth to light rail status you remove the ability to run heavy rail trains via Barry and the Vale of Glamorgan, which is very frequently both planned and unplanned - also like I say you need Cardiff Central to Ninian Park heavy rail to allow diversions via Ninian Park to regain access to the South Wales mainline.

There is, and always will be a heavy rail standards requirement from Cardiff Central via Ninian Park, Grangetown to Barry.
Common sense thinking is needed I think, not light rail is the answer now what’s the question.

The Core Valley Lines have been “upgraded” to heavy rail standards and will remain so, why create an isolated island of light rail at a key junction in south wales ?

 

[Cardiff123]

It would make much more sense for rail infrastructure in Wales to come Welsh Government control through Network Rail (as in Scotland, where the Scottish Government has control and funding of NR and so can implement it's program of rolling electrification)

This way we wouldn't have the situation we saw last week where Welsh Government has to go to the Treasury and DfT with a begging bowl and engage in years of lobbying of UK Government just to get vital infrastructure projects in Wales funded and implemented.

The Core Valley Lines electrification has shown what Welsh Govt and TfW can get done when they have the control and funding to implement projects themselves.

 

[Ib5]

The 2021 North West Corridor report (available here) outlines some options for grade separations:



(from pages 72 and 73)

A scheme on the scale of the total rebuild of Reading would be required - I’m actually in favour of this option, Reading and Cardiff would suite the reading style scheme. Canton isn’t fit for purpose anymore so could do with a total rebuild to modern efficient standards, but until someone opens the magic money box it’s not going to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

It would make much more sense for rail infrastructure in Wales to come Welsh Government control through Network Rail (as in Scotland, where the Scottish Government has control and funding of NR and so can implement it's program of rolling electrification)

This way we wouldn't have the situation we saw last week where Welsh Government has to go to the Treasury and DfT with a begging bowl and engage in years of lobbying of UK Government just to get vital infrastructure projects in Wales funded and implemented.

The Core Valley Lines electrification has shown what Welsh Govt and TfW can get done when they have the control and funding to implement projects themselves.

Over budget, descoped and late ?

Bravo guys and girls cracking job here’s the PIN number to the national bank account to mess up even more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

We can dream and draw little maps with crayons all be want, but this Xmas will see a few addtional point ends installed at Cardiff west to largely remove the current conflicts and deliver the increased City line services.

 

[Cardiff123]

Over budget, descoped and late ?

Bravo guys and girls cracking job here’s the PIN number to the national bank account to mess up even more.

Name me a major NR project that has been delivered bang on time and within budget in the last decade?

Since TfW took ownership of the CVL just before lockdown in March 2020, we've had a global pandemic that put an immediate stop to all upgrade work and rampant global inflation. If the CVL has been a DfT / NR project it would have been outright cancelled years ago, likely in 2017/18.
Chris Grayling was even on record at the time as saying that the CVL would've got new DMUs and that would've been it.

 

[Ib5]

Name me a major NR project that has been delivered bang on time and within budget in the last decade?

Since TfW took ownership of the CVL just before lockdown in March 2020, we've had a global pandemic that put an immediate stop to all upgrade work and rampant global inflation. If the CVL has been a DfT / NR project it would have been outright cancelled years ago, likely in 2017/18.
Chris Grayling was even on record at the time as saying that the CVL would've got new DMUs and that would've been it.

I can’t, as and I both know it’s not happened in a long time - well not to my knowledge anyway, I’m sure there has been a ontime / on budget project but they won’t make the same waves as massively over budget projects do.

The electrification should have been delivered with 315 units way back in 2003 when first group bid for the wales and borders franchise.
But we are where we are now, half baked and not fully prepared for the future - as they say that’s it folks once in a life time worth of investment.

 

[J663738]

"It will take more than three years to build some of the stations that funding was announced for in the spending review, Wales' first minister told the Senedd on Tuesday."

Interesting, 'more than 3 years' could mean anything!
Has this been kicked into the long grass, but announced anyway for next years Senedd election?
Could they use the extra money for day to day metro spending instead?

link:

Some new Welsh train stations will take more than three years - FM

Five new stations in south Wales were announced in the spending review last week.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[positron]

Presumably that's because the enabling development has to take place either first or concurrently. I'd say that since the enabling project is only at the pre-planning consultation stage that three years may even be a tad optimistic!

I do understand the frustration though since I suspect Crwys Road will rapidly become one of the busiest stations on the CVL network.

It's not an enabling project though. The original planning permission explicitly said that that building would be used for improved access in future. It shouldn't be a blocker though?

Potentially it's been delayed because they know that the Coryton services aren't reliable enough to actually stop there yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Could they use the extra money for day to day metro spending instead?

They can't use Dft (Network Rail) allocated capital expenditure for TfW operational expenditure, no. The capex doesn't exist until they spend it anyway.

As for 3 years that's not too surprising tbh, assuming they need to do relief line works as a pre-requesite. Hopefully we at least get one within the 3 years so people can actually see progress.