South Wales 'Metro' updates

[nwales58]

The standard of Welsh on that last sign is apalling. It looks like a Google translate job and contains five major errors in one short sentence.

And the 231 voice announcements start 'dim ond i' (as well as the 197s have for months) so at least the south gets insulted as well as the north.
Why can't public bodies get it right first time rather than having to go to the expense of removing and replacing signs when errors are pointed out? One wonders whether some staff members have lied about their fluency in Welsh when applying for jobs. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Has anyone formally told TfW?

I wonder if many have noticed ?.

 

[John R]

Has anyone formally told TfW?

In English or yn Gymraeg?

 

[CardiffKid]

I don’t speak Welsh. I usually try and ignore discussions about the Welsh language, but people on here have spotted problems with signage and I was just curious if any of them thought about flagging it with TfW?

Clearly not.

 

[positron]

A quick picture from a couple of days ago showing the vegetation clearance just north of Penarth station (this is taken from the Stanwell Road bridge, the last bridge before the station, and looking north towards Dingle Road). The pile of cable troughs will presumably used as part of works to relocate the cable route in order to make space for a second line. Also worth noting the very large number of lost balls which have been kicked over the fence from the school next door!


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I wonder why they've cut down the amount of double tracking on the Penarth branch. In the original plans it was meant to start before Dingle road and include new platforms at both stations. Given Dingle road has an old platform in situ there's clearly the space for it.

Hoping they also leave enough space for overhead electrification should that ever happen (I like to think it's possible they'll at least do to Penarth if not Barry)

 

[Signal_Box]

Intriguing that they're branding the Rhymney line up when that's the last one to get Metro branded trains. (231s aren't metro branded for some reason?). I assume that the TAM lines can't be far behind.

Because the 231s aren’t metro trains, their mainline trains drafted in to metro to cover for the lack of OLE aka 756s.

 

[John R]

I wonder why they've cut down the amount of double tracking on the Penarth branch. In the original plans it was meant to start before Dingle road and include new platforms at both stations. Given Dingle road has an old platform in situ there's clearly the space for it.

Hoping they also leave enough space for overhead electrification should that ever happen (I like to think it's possible they'll at least do to Penarth if not Barry)

That's an easy one to answer. Given the cost over-runs, they will have been trying to identify areas where they can reduce costs. A new platform is very costly (usually any remains of a platform last used over 50 years ago would be bulldozed and started again from scratch), particularly if you have to factor in level access requirements.

Given the plan is for trains to cross more or less at the terminus (as evidenced by the separate platforms for arrival and departure), then it was probably considered that the additional flexibility and reliability that would be obtained by the longer loop was not worth it.

 

[positron]

Because the 231s aren’t metro trains, their mainline trains drafted in to metro to cover for the lack of OLE aka 756s.

They kind of are though. The metro includes Maesteg and Ebbw vale and I believe even as far as Abergavenny. But as someone else pointed out the 231s will go to Cheltenham so perhaps that's why. Could also be lack of frequency on those lines so not really living up to the metro idea.

Part of me thinks it could even be a climate marketing decision. Only put metro on stuff that's (mostly) electric?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

That's an easy one to answer. Given the cost over-runs, they will have been trying to identify areas where they can reduce costs. A new platform is very costly (usually any remains of a platform last used over 50 years ago would be bulldozed and started again from scratch), particularly if you have to factor in level access requirements.

Given the plan is for trains to cross more or less at the terminus (as evidenced by the separate platforms for arrival and departure), then it was probably considered that the additional flexibility and reliability that would be obtained by the longer loop was not worth it.

Yeah that makes sense. A bit annoying that presumably Dft are cutting funding for this sort of thing though. They're already doing the bare minimum.

 

[Bald Rick]

A bit annoying that presumably Dft are cutting funding for this sort of thing though. They're already doing the bare minimum.

It’s not DfT funding…

 

[Last Hurrah]

It’s not DfT funding…

The Penarth line which runs South of Cardiff, is still part of Network Rail infrastructure - I’ve assumed the proposed enhancements are being funded by NR (DfT with Treasury approval) with TfW possibly contributing to some peripherals - is this the case ?

On reflection, the Ebbw Vale line duelling, again on NR infrastructure, is mainly funded by TfW guaranteeing a substantial loan taken out by the local authority - NR are making a smaller contribution with enhancing the signalling

 

[John R]

The Penarth line which runs South of Cardiff, is still part of Network Rail infrastructure - I’ve assumed the proposed enhancements are being funded by NR (DfT with Treasury approval) with TfW possibly contributing to some peripherals - is this the case ?

On reflection, the Ebbw Vale line duelling, again on NR infrastructure, is mainly funded by TfW guaranteeing a substantial loan taken out by the local authority - NR are making a smaller contribution with enhancing the signalling

The infrastructure changes in connection with the Metro will be fully funded by TFW, albeit that Network Rail owns some of the track involved. DfT funding won’t come into it.

 

[adrock1976]

Is it intended for the Maesteg branch to have overhead wires, or has that been abandoned?

I remember reading somewhere years ago that if the Senedd were to electrify the whole of the Valley Lines network including Maesteg, there was something that the DfT would consider carrying on with the wires to Swansea/Abertawe being as the Cardiff - Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont section would be halfway there already.

 

[Dai Corner]

Is it intended for the Maesteg branch to have overhead wires, or has that been abandoned?

I remember reading somewhere years ago that if the Senedd were to electrify the whole of the Valley Lines network including Maesteg, there was something that the DfT would consider carrying on with the wires to Swansea/Abertawe being as the Cardiff - Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont section would be halfway there already.

Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

They're not even electrifying the Ebbw Vale branch which would enable EMUs to work it from Cardiff and probably not require any extra feeder stations.

If both Governments had worked together they could probably have made a case for Cardiff-Swansea with 3 or 4 electric or bi-mode trains per hour. One, as we now have it, is not really sufficient justification.

 

[John R]

Is it intended for the Maesteg branch to have overhead wires, or has that been abandoned?

I remember reading somewhere years ago that if the Senedd were to electrify the whole of the Valley Lines network including Maesteg, there was something that the DfT would consider carrying on with the wires to Swansea/Abertawe being as the Cardiff - Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont section would be halfway there already.

The scheme as announced some 5(?) years ago made no mention of electrification to Maesteg, so it's not been abandoned - it was never envisaged. The only stretches being electrified are the parts of the network now owned by TfW (with the minor exception I believe of a small bit around Canton depot).

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I don’t speak Welsh. I usually try and ignore discussions about the Welsh language, but people on here have spotted problems with signage and I was just curious if any of them thought about flagging it with TfW?

Clearly not.

Actually, I have since last Sunday but have yet to receive anything back - although they're meant to reply within 48 hours.

 

[adrock1976]

Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

They're not even electrifying the Ebbw Vale branch which would enable EMUs to work it from Cardiff and probably not require any extra feeder stations.

If both Governments had worked together they could probably have made a case for Cardiff-Swansea with 3 or 4 electric or bi-mode trains per hour. One, as we now have it, is not really sufficient justification.

The scheme as announced some 5(?) years ago made no mention of electrification to Maesteg, so it's not been abandoned - it was never envisaged. The only stretches being electrified are the parts of the network now owned by TfW (with the minor exception I believe of a small bit around Canton depot).

Thanks both - I'll leave it at that now before any red text appears.

 

[Last Hurrah]

The infrastructure changes in connection with the Metro will be fully funded by TFW, albeit that Network Rail owns some of the track involved. DfT funding won’t come into it.

It seems unless TfW/WG are prepared to substantially fund an enhancement, it sadly won’t get done

 

[Dai Corner]

It seems unless TfW/WG are prepared to substantially fund an enhancement, it sadly won’t get done

The UK and Welsh Governments are going 50/50 on the Cardiff-Callaghan Square-Cardiff Bay tramway, for example.

 

[snowball]

I remember reading somewhere years ago that if the Senedd were to electrify the whole of the Valley Lines network including Maesteg, there was something that the DfT would consider carrying on with the wires to Swansea/Abertawe being as the Cardiff - Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont section would be halfway there already.

May have been true at the time but that's no guarantee it's true today. We're on our fifth prime minister in seven years* so few if any things said then still apply.

*In checking this statement I discovered that in half an hour's time it will be the seventh anniversary of Cameron's replacement by May.

 

[CardiffKid]

The SWML electrification was announced by the Westminster Labour Govt in 2009 all the way to Swansea - not sure if that included the Vale as a diversion?

In 2010 the Con/LD Coalition announced a review of it and most other public spend projects.

On St David’s Day 2011 it was announced the line would be electrified but only as far as Cardiff.

In late 2012/early 2013 it was increased to Swansea with the whole of the Valleys. Part of the justification was indeed the Cardiff to Bridgend Mainline section which would allow the line to Measteg.

I distinctly remember this as Carwyn Jones the then Welsh FM later criticised Nick Clegg after the later incorrectly stated/misspoke by saying that Bridgend was to the East of Cardiff.

 

[MikePJ]

The SWML electrification was announced by the Westminster Labour Govt in 2009 all the way to Swansea - not sure if that included the Vale as a diversion?

In 2010 the Con/LD Coalition announced a review of it and most other public spend projects.

On St David’s Day 2011 it was announced the line would be electrified but only as far as Cardiff.

In late 2012/early 2013 it was increased to Swansea with the whole of the Valleys. Part of the justification was indeed the Cardiff to Bridgend Mainline section which would allow the line to Measteg.

I distinctly remember this as Carwyn Jones the then Welsh FM later criticised Nick Clegg after the later incorrectly stated/misspoke by saying that Bridgend was to the East of Cardiff.

Of course, Chris Grayling then cancelled most of Clegg’s electrification plans, ostensibly because of cost overruns on the Great Western electrification project.

 

[Signal_Box]

The SWML electrification was announced by the Westminster Labour Govt in 2009 all the way to Swansea - not sure if that included the Vale as a diversion?

In 2010 the Con/LD Coalition announced a review of it and most other public spend projects.

On St David’s Day 2011 it was announced the line would be electrified but only as far as Cardiff.

In late 2012/early 2013 it was increased to Swansea with the whole of the Valleys. Part of the justification was indeed the Cardiff to Bridgend Mainline section which would allow the line to Measteg.

I distinctly remember this as Carwyn Jones the then Welsh FM later criticised Nick Clegg after the later incorrectly stated/misspoke by saying that Bridgend was to the East of Cardiff.

Everything from Severn Tunnel to Swansea including the Vale of Glamorgan Mainline (and to Barry Island & Penarth), also including Ebbw Vale and Measteg was in the original master plan announced in 2009.

Heavy rail OLE to all valley branches as well, how things could of been different.

Although the plan was to use class 313 sets on the now CVL.

 

[John R]

Everything from Severn Tunnel to Swansea including the Vale of Glamorgan Mainline (and to Barry Island & Penarth), also including Ebbw Vale and Measteg was in the original master plan announced in 2009.

Heavy rail OLE to all valley branches as well, how things could of been different.

Although the plan was to use class 313 sets on the now CVL.

Well yes, but the plan announced by the Welsh Government over 5 years ago, and which since then has been the basis of the project was much less ambitious.

So when someone asks if it’s still intended to wire to Maesteg or if it has been abandoned, it’s not unreasonable to respond on the basis that such a plan has never been part of the funded project for over half a decade.

 

[Signal_Box]

Well yes, but the plan announced by the Welsh Government over 5 years ago, and which since then has been the basis of the project was much less ambitious.

So when someone asks if it’s still intended to wire to Maesteg or if it has been abandoned, it’s not unreasonable to respond on the basis that such a plan has never been part of the funded project for over half a decade.

No, but historically it was planned which is also not unreasonable response.

If you go back to the 2003 Wales & Borders franchise, First Group proposed converting the whole what is now CVL into a tram network with on street working in Cardiff.

Of course Arriva won on the infamous no growth franchise which leads us to the mess we have today.

 

[emoaconr]

The SWML electrification was announced by the Westminster Labour Govt in 2009 all the way to Swansea - not sure if that included the Vale as a diversion?

In 2010 the Con/LD Coalition announced a review of it and most other public spend projects.

On St David’s Day 2011 it was announced the line would be electrified but only as far as Cardiff.

In late 2012/early 2013 it was increased to Swansea with the whole of the Valleys. Part of the justification was indeed the Cardiff to Bridgend Mainline section which would allow the line to Measteg.

I distinctly remember this as Carwyn Jones the then Welsh FM later criticised Nick Clegg after the later incorrectly stated/misspoke by saying that Bridgend was to the East of Cardiff.

The 2012 announcement was made by the outgoing Welsh Secretary, the late Cheryl Gillan. I believe at that point she was already aware she was being shuffled out of a job.

 

[THC]

Everything from Severn Tunnel to Swansea including the Vale of Glamorgan Mainline (and to Barry Island & Penarth), also including Ebbw Vale and Measteg was in the original master plan announced in 2009.

Heavy rail OLE to all valley branches as well, how things could of been different.

Although the plan was to use class 313 sets on the now CVL.

Almost - it was planned to use Class 315s.

THC

 

[Signal_Box]

Almost - it was planned to use Class 315s.

THC

I knew it was a PEP unit, cheers.
Did / do they have toilets onboard ?

 

[John R]

Neither the 313 nor 315 had toilets. For context, on the original 313 Great Northern route, 313 maximum journey times were not dissimilar to the maxima which will be seen on the tram routes (around 50 mins from Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North into Moorgate).

 

[Signal_Box]

Neither the 313 nor 315 had toilets. For context, on the original 313 Great Northern route, 313 maximum journey times were not dissimilar to the maxima which will be seen on the tram routes (around 50 mins from Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North into Moorgate).

However, how many sporting events does the GN see ? I assume you’ve experienced the valleys after an event at the stadiums, and or generally a weekend evening ?

It’ll be a war zone or urine and god knows what, thank god I don’t use the train.

 

[Bob Price]

You may like to look up a place called Wembley which one or two sporting events and is served by toiletless trains, see also Lansdowne road, Muriefield, etc. The three or four events at the stadium do not create the need to take out chunks of seating for a toilet on a metro vehicle.